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Zimbabwe Gives Land Back to White Farmers

Discussion in 'GatorNana's Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by chemgator, Mar 13, 2020.

  1. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Turns out that there is apparently something worse than colonialism and the racism that comes with it. And that's starvation and financial ruin. Again, racism = bad, but death by starvation = worse.

    Zimbabwe Gives Land Back to White Farmers After Wrecking Economy

    Maybe a small lesson for the Bernie Sanders fans out there as a bonus. Taking from the rich and giving to the poor CAN result in everyone becoming poor.
     
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  2. Gatorrick22

    Gatorrick22 GC Hall of Fame

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    Did they bring BACK... the thousands OF WHITE PEOPLE that they murdered, back to life too?
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
  3. ThePlayer

    ThePlayer VIP Member

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    40 acres and a government mule.
     
  4. nolancarey

    nolancarey GC Hall of Fame

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    Hard to eat tobacco and roses. I've tried. It tastes terrible going in but smells somewhat pleasant going out.
     
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  5. slayerxing

    slayerxing GC Hall of Fame

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    OK the low key racism and classism are noted.

    Even 5 minutes of research on this issue would tell you that there is a lot more going on here than just that stupid blurb from yahoo...

    Robert Mugabe was a dictator that was hugely corrupt. Somehow tying the problems of Zimbabwe to poor people or black people is honestly just sad if that is your perspective. They had a greedy dictator who the US actually sanctioned and they are just trying to climb out of that hole while facing one of the biggest climate disasters in the world.

    Also, what this has to do with Bernie Sanders, who just wants to tax the rich more, I don't know. I haven't seen anywhere that he plans to become a dictator, take people's property away, and give it to his political friends.

    Zimbabwe’s New Land Reforms Don’t Go Far Enough

    Mnangagwa’s modification of the land reform policy is widely viewed as a desperate attempt by the regime to win the international support needed to set the crisis-ridden country on a path to recovery. Mugabe’s land redistribution exercise antagonized Zimbabwe’s former colonial occupier, Britain, and the West more broadly, which accused the government of human rights abuses, including not upholding property rights. What followed were years of international isolation, low foreign direct investment, and all of the country’s present challenges, represented today in shortages of foreign currency, fuel, food, water, electricity, and passports.

    Zimbabwe on verge of 'manmade starvation', warns UN envoy

    “These are shocking figures and the crisis continues to worsen due to poverty and high unemployment, widespread corruption, severe price instabilities, lack of purchasing power, poor agricultural productivity, natural disasters, recurrent droughts and unilateral economic sanctions,” Elver said.

    The poor rains experienced in the 2018-19 agricultural season have exacerbated the food crisis as the government battles to provide social services.

    How climate and corruption have combined to create Zimbabwe's food crisis

    I hope you learned something.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2020
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  6. jmoliver

    jmoliver GC Hall of Fame

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    The comments on this thread say it all
     
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  7. nobbqsauce

    nobbqsauce All American

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    4,500 white farmers were forced to give up their farms.
    Those farms where not taken over by individuals who could maintain them and the end result was crop failure.
    Yes, government corruption has played a role. It was government corruption that pro.pted the land take over to begin with. It is government corruption that....and incompetence...that leads to poor road maintenance, poor damn dam maintenance, poor national education programs, etc...
    All of these things lead to economic collapse, food shortages, international skepticism and massive inflation.
     
  8. studegator

    studegator All American

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    As usual, there is way more to the story then some white farmers getting farms back.
    I highly recommend anyone interested in reading about south African history, to read James Michener's book "The Covenant".
    The Covenant is a historical novel by American author James A. Michener, published in 1980. The novel is set in South Africa, home to five distinct populations: Bantu (native Black tribes), Coloured (the result of generations of racial mixture between persons of European descent and the indigenous occupants of South Africa along with slaves brought in from Angola, Indonesia, India, Madagascar ...
     
  9. WarDamnGator

    WarDamnGator GC Hall of Fame

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    They must be doing well.... a few years ago everyone in Zimbabwe was like a 500 Trillionaire.
     
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  10. slayerxing

    slayerxing GC Hall of Fame

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    Clearly at least one person actively is annoyed I tried to educate them lol.
     
  11. gatorpika

    gatorpika Premium Member

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    There was nothing wrong with his article or contradicted by the ones you posted. Zimbabwe was a British colony where the white people owned all the land, so Mugabe did a land redistribution because he thought that the country belonged to black people. The white people had been farming the land fairly efficiently though and the disruption in giving it to underfunded and underprepared people was significant. The agricultural sector mostly collapsed. Not only that but the nationalization and economic impacts brought on inflation, which both contributed to reducing foreign investment and further making matters worse. Now they are simply trying to undo all that and get back to where they were before more or less. This has been going on for decades as well, so no it's not the fault of one drought. And yes it is racism in that white people are identified with the former colonial masters by the color of their skin. The land policy was based on race.
     
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  12. slayerxing

    slayerxing GC Hall of Fame

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    First of all, the article is barely an article. It's almost a tweet.
    Second, Yes, the policy of taking land away from white people is by definition, racist. That was never in question.

    However, this thread was basically implying 1. That somehow this is some way tied to what Bernie sanders wants to do, and that 2. Black people and poor people can't run farms without help from white colonialists without taking anything else into context.

    CONTEXT:
    They had a dictator in charge who was making crappy economic decisions - including how and who used the land
    They have had a historic drought for more than 5 years
    They have had serious sanctions from the EU and US for at least a decade that I am aware of

    So what bothered me is a thread where the OP compares this situation to Bernie Sanders, and then says Colonialism is OK because low-key implying that poor black people can't take care of themselves. And it's a hell of a lot more complicated than that. So i didn't dispute that useless article that was posted, I added context. How anyone can have a problem with that I'm not sure.
     
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  13. Trickster

    Trickster Premium Member

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    I think you're drawing the wrong lesson because your views don't allow you to see the larger picture.
     
  14. Trickster

    Trickster Premium Member

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    It's astonishing you got a come on man. It reminds me why I blocked him.
     
  15. gatorpika

    gatorpika Premium Member

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    Did the OP really imply that black people and poor people can't run farms or is that how you interpreted it? He seems to be saying there is a pattern where colonial powers leave, which usually results in a backlash against the white people left behind and the agrarian reforms often fail. Those economic plans that cause chaos are typically put forward by a populist or a socialist and the result is that they often wreck the economy. I don't see how you can say he is a racist or classist because that's simply history. He's tying in Bernie because Bernie is a populist and sympathetic to socialism, or basically saying that wealth transfers often end up badly. Seems a purely political post, not sure how you can take away that he is racist from that.
     
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  16. slayerxing

    slayerxing GC Hall of Fame

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    He implied colonialism in Africa is worth it because apparently the colonized can’t take care of themselves without the former colonists.

    Maybe they would have done better if the rest of the world didn’t sanction them and they had half a million slaves to get their farming operation off the ground...

    Also there is a big difference between confiscating land and raising taxes on the rich. It’s these type of hysterical comparisons that render political debate about sanders policies with conservatives nearly impossible.
     
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  17. VAg8r1

    VAg8r1 GC Hall of Fame

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    [​IMG]
     
  18. gatorpika

    gatorpika Premium Member

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    I didn't see anywhere where he was supporting colonialism. He directly implied that the agrarian reforms Zimbabwe pursued ended in disaster as has happened in other countries that have had similar programs. While they may want to diversify ownership of the land, you can't just toss out all the people who have managed the land for years and give it to your preferred group who don't know how to do it and expect things to come out well. Chavez did the same thing where he funded worker owned cooperatives and they mostly all failed. You need incremental and cooperative change more like how in Europe labor has a seat on the BOD of companies. The sanctions were imposed based on Mugabe's undemocratic leadership, human rights abuses, corruption and poor economic planning. It wasn't like wow, he has a great left wing thing going on down there and the west wants to crush it. It was because he was a bad guy, like in many other countries we have sanctioned.

    As for Bernie, yeah he is no Mugabe. But his policies could very easily be detrimental to the economy and things like access to healthcare. If you want to have a rational debate on his policies, start with how does he pay for all the stuff he has promised? Convince us that it's workable. And simply gouging the rich isn't gonna do it.
     
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  19. gator_lawyer

    gator_lawyer Premium Member

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    Without reading any of the literature, I think a logical way of doing it is to take some (but not all) of the land from the descendants of the colonizers, tell them that you will pay them 50 cents on the dollar (just pulling a number out of my butt) on the land you're taking if they work with the natives and teach them how to work the land (they get nothing if they refuse), and use that partnership to reduce the harmful effects of the colonizing while still giving the white people there skin in the game and helping the natives eventually become self sufficient.
     
  20. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    There is no implication that black people cannot run farms without help from white colonialists. The implication is fairly clear: someone with no background or training in an occupation is going to make a mess of it if an entire business is handed to him.

    The implication for Bernie Sanders is equally clear: if you take wealth from a group of people who generated it, and give it to others who did not generate it, the economy will falter, and you will have less money than you started with. Yes, there are simplifications involved in comparing the U.S. to Zimbabwe (just like comparing Venezuela to the U.S.), but the trend is still clear.
     
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