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You cannot erase human rights violations in the past

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by g8orbill, Jun 12, 2018.

  1. g8orbill

    g8orbill Old Gator VIP Member

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    I know many of you will do your usual where Rush is concerned but he makes a HUGE point

    You Can’t Erase Human Rights Violations in the Past, But You Can Prevent Them in the Future - The Rush Limbaugh Show

    From his show today:

    And the best way to go forward, the best way, the single best way to engage in fixing human rights violations is by economic freedom, allowing people the opportunity to seek and experience prosperity. It’s no different, let’s take a couple, man and wife, been married 15, 20 years. She catches him cheating on her. This causes a great rift, but they eventually work it out. He does the mea culpas and the assurances it’s never going to happen again. She forgives him.

    But then every argument they have going forward, she reminds him, “You cheated on me, you S-O-B.” That relationship is doomed. You can’t fix what’s already happened, and you can’t erase it. You can only move forward. And so getting Kim Jong-un to admit something about human rights violations in the past is meaningless in terms of building a deal for the future. And I think even making him admit to it is a waste of time because it’s not the objective. The objective is to end them going forward. And you do that with the details and the terms of the deal.
     
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  2. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    So I wonder what Limbaugh had to say about this exact issue (human rights violations from an Anti-American dictatorial regime) when Obama walked into a room with Chavez:

    Rush Limbaugh on Obama and Chavez | RealClearPolitics
     
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  3. gatorpika

    gatorpika Premium Member

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    The human rights abuses continue though. So the husband is still banging every floozy he can get his hands on. Kim killed his uncle by feeding him to starving dogs a few years ago. He has had others shot, some reportedly by an antiaircraft gun. The detainment camps where they keep political prisoners and their entire extended families are still open for business. So no, I don't think this is a good time to "move on".
     
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  4. GatorFanCF

    GatorFanCF Premium Member

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    Quoted above: “So I wonder what Limbaugh had to say about this exact issue (human rights violations from an Anti-American dictatorial regime) when Obama walked into a room with Chavez:”

    Great point - I had forgotten how Chavez was open to changes in his policies to improve Venezuela’s lot. NOT! :rolleyes:
     
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  5. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    Great point- I had forgotten how Kim was open to changes in his policies to improve North Korea's lot. NOT! :rolleyes:

    You realize that all we got them to do was sign their name to their long-term official policy and made concessions to do so, right?
     
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  6. GatorFanCF

    GatorFanCF Premium Member

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    Yes - I agree with you....Everyone is smoking “Hope-ium” right now. No one has really committed to anything; but, as folks like to say. “A relationship has begun.”
     
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  7. T3goalie

    T3goalie Premium Member

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    You begin at the beginning. Where else?

    No money has been paid, no sanctions lifted. But a dialogue has started.

    I prefer dialogue to rockets. The new Secretary of State has a lot of work to do. He is a capable guy, not a political hack.

    The new rhetoric about human rights violations arising from the left (to attempt to blunt any appearance of progress) must mean something good is happening.
     
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  8. g8orbill

    g8orbill Old Gator VIP Member

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    Hope springs eternal
     
  9. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan GC Hall of Fame

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    Was this the opinion of the right when Obama went to Cuba?

    It's amazing to me the cognitive dissidence of people. If my guy does it, it's great. If their guy does it, it's awful.

    Personally, I don't mind dialogue with anyone, and if people are willing to sit down peacefully and talk, we should be at least willing to listen and engage. That goes for both Cuba and N. Korea.
     
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  10. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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  11. docspor

    docspor GC Hall of Fame

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    The reality is, if NK had the same military capability as Cuba Trump would not have met with them. There's a bit more at stake here than the welfare of the NK people. This is like comparing mangoes & nukes.

    upload_2018-6-12_17-35-17.jpeg
     
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  12. T3goalie

    T3goalie Premium Member

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    .

    In fact it was.

    If you or anyone can produce anything I said to the contrary I'll pay your membership here for the rest of 2018 and 2019. Please show my cognitive dissidence.

    Fwiw, it has been crickets from the left in re: NK . Total silence, Zip , nada , nothing , not a word... Is that because WJC's policy proved to be a disaster, and WJC was their boy? You bet! How disingenuous can they be and who do they think they are fooling other than the face looking at them in the mirror?

    Note- Same can't be said for the right who has railed against Castro for decades.

    That said, and to your point, stone walling and ignoring does not make the problem go away. The problem gets bigger. Policy types love to talk about nuance to a paralyzed outcome. Cuba is a perfect example. Both parties acted like Castro wasn't there for 40 years and that accomplished nothing.

    Business people who have $ at stake try to solve or mitigate problems. And that is why Trump drives the left and right crazy. He actually tries to determine how to solve a problem vs continuing the lunacy of the longest cease fire in the history of war. Kudos to him . Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. NK has to determine what it wants. But the change is NK military leadership over last few weeks seems like a sea change. NK has more to gain than lose. But unlike past deals, the payoff for good behavior is on the back end. SK would love NK stable and China benefits too.

    And what is the down side if it fails? NK leader gains prestige for getting meeting with USA president? In whose eyes? To what benefit? Do the starving peasants think more of him? The think tankers can talk about that and write papers that nobody would wipe their butt with.

    This isn't Neville Chamberlin claiming"peace in our time. " It isn't even akin Churchill's "end of the beginning." Trump made it pretty clear this is step one ground zero at the beginning of the beginning. Like him or hate him he understands markers in a deal. That is his world.

    The human rights talk is bad politics. Lack of sincerity rings hollow.
     
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  13. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan GC Hall of Fame

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    Most conservatives went apoloptic when Obama went to Cuba, not all. Couldn't remember which ones felt this way and which thought the discussions were at least worth having. Didn't mean to imply you, or everyone on the right is being hypercritical now, and my apologies to you.

    I agree that many on the left addressed being equally hypercritical with Trump and N. Korea. I have my doubts anything off substance will come of the summit, that comes from distrust of N. Korea and I would feel the same if Obama was still President. But as you say, step one in any relationship is listening to each other, and regardless how you feel about Trump, this is an historic first step.
     
  14. Gator715

    Gator715 GC Hall of Fame

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    Cuba posed no threat, whatsoever to the US, when Obama met with Castro... what leverage did Cuba have to encourage a meeting?

    North Korea, on the other hand posed a serious not only national, but global security risk.

    If North Korea didn't have nuclear weapons, and didn't have a ruler who is actually crazy... then I don't see why Trump should pander to North Korea in any way...

    All that happened in Cuba was removing the embargo, legitimizing the Castro regime, and empty promises from the Castro regime after the damage had already been done for half a century to their people... What did the US gain from it? Trade and tourism with Cuba... Lol... :D And that's coming from a Cuban...

    North Korea without nuclear weapons (if it happens) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuba with no embargo and open trade and tourism with the US... I'd care much more about what happened in Cuba if there were a complete overhaul in their governmental structure, starting with the Castros.... or even steps in that direction... but that was always off the table...
     
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  15. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    So, basically, if you are a brutal dictatorship and develop nuclear weaponry, the store is open from the US? It seems like we would want to discourage that sort of thinking.
     
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  16. danmann65

    danmann65 GC Hall of Fame

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    Lets see what happens. China is still the key. If we capitulate completely on trade N kore will reform like our Conservatives wet dream. If we are in a trade war with China in 6 months North Korea will remain a problem.
     
  17. VAg8r1

    VAg8r1 GC Hall of Fame

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    Human rights violations under Chavez were trivial compared to the ongoing human rights violations under the Kim dynasty in North Korea. There isn't any comparison between the two.
    World Report 2017: Rights Trends in North Korea
     
  18. T3goalie

    T3goalie Premium Member

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    Right now, NK is reaching out to USA and SK in a way that seemed like fantasy land just 6 months ago.

    People are talking, not launching rockets.

    I guarantee you people in SK like this a hell of a lot better.

    Lines are being crossed by people and words are being exchanged, not gunfire.

    Is that not preferable?

    The irony is the left has almost adopted a punishment mentality . They seem to be going to the right of where Trump was in January.

    Nothing has been done for 20 years. Nothing said for 20 years ... and as soon as any progress appears to be made, it is diminished as not enough. Shumer cracked me up last week when he wanted to jump in on the party. As a kid we you to say, "where you been killer?" Heads of state of SK and NK have met twice recently. That is a start.

    And what if it falls apart? Not much downside and a lot of potential upside.
     
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  19. PITBOSS

    PITBOSS GC Hall of Fame

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    Thanks for mentioning it was rush in the first sentence of the op. I didn’t read another word.
     
  20. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    The 2005 agreement went further than this one.

    However, the reason why you are seeing the right push so hard on this "talking, not launching rockets" narrative is because we gave away a bunch and didn't get a thing for it. They've already proven they have the capability to do it, so they don't need to test anymore. So the lines have to be suitably vague to cover up for the fact that we handed Kim what his family has wanted for decades (a seat at the table as an equal instead of a pariah nation) and added a cherry on top (pulled out of joint exercises using the exact word that they use to describe our joint exercises with ROK) without getting a thing in return (the "denuclearization" clause used DPRK language, affirming their existing "policy").

    The right and Kim are both going to sell this as the US being lucky that DPRK talked to the US. But that shouldn't really be the framing that we started from here.
     
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