Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by g8rjd, Sep 14, 2021.
Anyways, love to see the plot of Crimson Tide play out IRL
The red part is a bit odd, but given the chaos of Trump I don’t find odd the overall idea we have military channels open and had to assure concerned parties the admin wasn’t going to lash out.
Open military channels is how we averted possible nuclear catastrophe during the Cuban missile crisis.
No that's not odd, it's something more along the lines of completely indefensible behavior from a member of the military and I do not care who is or is not the president.
I was confused about what you were saying too. That helps me understand. Thank you.
I thought you were arguing that Milley putting himself into any strike order process in the CoC was your issue.
What is the indefensible behavior?
You get this isn’t unique to Milley, right? People in our government have counterparts, and they sometimes talk to those counterparts, even with adversaries. That is true of our top general. That is true of Secretary of State. That is true of the President (well... a normal one).
If Pompeo wasn’t talking to his counterparts while on his little family vacay/world tour, I would say THAT is the indefensible behavior. We had a real crisis in our hands with a lunatic President. Milley was trying to offer some sense of military stability, that there would be no surprise attacks. Aka he’s doing his job protecting the United States.
It seems you are just struggling to understand the country needed protecting from a sociopath President.
I believe he’s saying that a general engaging in an unauthorized disclosure of a properly ordered military strike telling his counterpart with the target of that strike that it is coming without authorization is indefensible.
Yes, that’s what I find slightly odd about the red quote.
The thing is, there was basically no scenario where an attack could be anything but illegal or deranged - as part of Trumps illegal coup plans rather than in the interests of the United States. So there was actually no chance of an “authorized” or “properly ordered” attack occurring. But it is certainly odd to see the wording, “if we are gong to attack you, i will let you know” lol.
Meanwhile, buried in that story is that the savior of the Republic was…Dan Quayle.
C’mon, who saw that plot twist?
If the president issues an unconstitutional order, there is nothing in the Constitution that says, "Hey Gen. Milley, go ahead and call the communists in China to give them a heads up because that will not result in them responding with nuclear weapons preemptively. This will be okay because you don't agree with the president."
I want you to understand where I am coming from on this. This is not about back door diplomacy. This is about alerting an enemy that we are going to fire on them.
Furthermore, it's done INSTEAD of working to stop the unconstitutional order.
Mark Milley is not the Secretary of Homeland Security
Mark Milley is not the Secretary of Veterans Affairs
Mark Milley is not the Secretary of Education
Mark Milley is not the Secretary of Energy
Mark Milley is not the Secretary of Transportation
Mark Milley is not the Secretary of Housing and Urban Development
Mark Milley is not the Secretary of Health and Human Services
Mark Milley is not the Secretary of Labor
Mark Milley is not the Secretary of Commerce
Mark Milley is not the Secretary of Agriculture
Mark Milley is not the Secretary of the Interior
Mark Milley is not the Attorney General
Mark Milley is not the Secretary of Defense
Mark Milley is not the Secretary of the Treasury
Mark Milley is not the Secretary of State
Mark Milley is not the President pro tempore of the Senate
Mark Milley is not the Speaker of the House of Representatives
Mark Milley is not the Vice President
Mark Milley is not the President of the United States of America.
He has a job to do and his job is not to call his buddies in other countries to tip them off.
So blindly follow deranged orders? Say nothing to reassure his counterparts (who were calling!)
He swore an oath to the constitution. Against enemies foreign AND domestic. Milley upholds that oath, almost nobody in the administration did (Pence barely did at the very end, but he searched for ways around it).
I get your slippery slope argument. I really do. But we’d never before seen what was essentially a broken chain of command. There were many other rumors and talk of administration people ignoring Trumps illegal orders (Tillerson was pretty direct about having to do that as Secretary of State). But the idea of people just “ignoring” that President or hoping he would just forget about previous orders seemed to be a fairly pervasive thought coming out of that admin. Do you think it’s only ok if a person is in the line of succession to make those calls? That was an issue throughout his term, not just here. That is why the spectre of the 25th Amendment was raised several times. I guess Miley realized that was never happening at end stage, despite Trump effectively being completely consumed with the election in his final months.
The Cuban Missile Crisis is what came to mind for me as well. Kennedy and Khrushchev opened backchannels as both officially were not communicating at that point in the Cold War. One thing I pray for when I pray for the country is having the right people in place at the right time. Can you imagine how Trump would have dealt or caved to General LeMay? I suspect world history may look quite different. It's why I don't buy any argument about 1 person not making a significant difference and how our separation of powers protect us from calamity.
LeMay…he was something.
Those recordings of the discussions around the crisis are pretty fascinating/chilling to listen to. He had his flaws for sure, but JFK had big cajones tangling with a couple of our Generals AND Nikita.
George Wallace's VP running mate had flaws? Who knew?
“Following orders” is no excuse to commit war crimes. If the general had reason to think Trump could launch nukes so he could stay in power, than it’s understandable to implement safeguards. Especially considering trump was the catalyst for the recent capital riots that put our congress and at risk.
Tangent, but what’s the opposite of mansplaining?
For context: Hans M. Kristensen - Wikipedia
Looks like you’re in good company Vind…
I see what you did there. I am not a Trump fan. I am a Constitution fan. Vindman happens to be right on this count.
I wasn’t doing anything. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Book includes a conversation between Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Joint Chiefs Chairman Mark Milley.
“PELOSI: If they couldn’t even stop him from an assault on the Capitol, who even knows what else he may do? And is there anybody in charge at the White House who was doing anything but kissing his fat butt all over this? You know he’s crazy. He’s been crazy for a long time.
MILLEY: Madam Speaker, I agree with you on everything.“