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White house pulling out of NK summit meeting.

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by WarDamnGator, May 23, 2018.

  1. OaktownGator

    OaktownGator Guardian of the GC Galaxy Moderator VIP Member

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    I get that we don't agree on things politically, but that doesn't mean you get to completely mischaracterize what I have posted quite clearly, several times on this subject. You are entirely too bought into this Trump ploy of making up complete bullshit and spewing it for the chorus to slobber up in gluttonous glee.

    But for anybody who made the mistake of believing this alternative fact tripe, here is what I have claimed several times on the subject.
    1. It wouldn't have mattered who was POTUS... NK was going to advance their nuclear and missile programs regardless.
    2. If what happened last year had occurred on the watch of a Dem POTUS, nearly 100% of Trump supporters would have been going absolutely ape shit blaming the Dem POTUS.
    3. NK is not going to denuclearize. They didn't work this hard on their programs to just give them up. They are coming from a position of much greater strength now. They will try to play us, potentially claiming they will denuclearlize, but there will not be any verifiable actions towards that end.
    4. I highly doubt Trump (or any other POTUS) is going to change anything about my prior statement, but if NK verifiably denuclearizes, I will give credit where credit is due.
     
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  2. Minister_of_Information

    Minister_of_Information Under budget & ahead of schedule Premium Member

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    Mar-A-Lago
    Yeah.
     
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  3. WarDamnGator

    WarDamnGator GC Hall of Fame

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  4. Minister_of_Information

    Minister_of_Information Under budget & ahead of schedule Premium Member

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    Mar-A-Lago
  5. docspor

    docspor GC Hall of Fame

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    I don't think the CIA is telling us anything we don't already know - that the odds are against them giving up their nukes. I think the probability of them giving them up is slimmer if these talks don't happen. Talking it good. IMO, it is a positive step.
     
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  6. WarDamnGator

    WarDamnGator GC Hall of Fame

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    My guess is Trump declassified it because he thinks NK getting a McDonalds is still a huge win for America.
     
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  7. g8tr80

    g8tr80 GC Hall of Fame

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    The article said NK will not give up their nukes "anytime soon". Brilliant, in depth analysis by our best and brightest.

    I concur, not anytime soon. Let's start with actually signing a peace treaty ending the Korean War. Then let's begin trade talks and open borders between North and South Korea. Once trade is established along with possible opening of an embassy or two, then we can discuss denuclearization as a quid pro quo for reduction in US military force on the Korean peninsula. In the mean time, while all this is going on, nobody is getting blown up.

    Kim need s assurances that his regime - and his life - will not be held at risk. That will obviously take a bit of time. Gotta start somewhere.
     
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  8. WarDamnGator

    WarDamnGator GC Hall of Fame

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    Really, wasn't Trump tweeting just a few days that NK had agreed to "complete denuclearization", or some such thing? That's quite different that "maybe someday" if we meet all his demands for years and years.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
  9. g8tr80

    g8tr80 GC Hall of Fame

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    It would be naive of all of us to believe that a day after the summit, the NK are going to hand over their nuclear weapons or for that matter, all our troops will be put on planes heading home. It is more likely that a path to denuclearization will be created which will include all of the above . So yes, you can actually agree to denuclearization without mandating it being done in 24 hours. There are many. many moving parts to this and many steps in the process, but you know this.
     
  10. wgbgator

    wgbgator Very Stable Genius Premium Member

    Apr 19, 2007
    Geo-hell
    Ok, that would be extremely generous of us and great, but I imagine a lot of people will read that as giving them a whole lot for only the possibility of something happening in the future with their nuclear program. It will also be interesting to see all the people who thought doing the same with Iran was a horrible no good idea that ruined our leverage suddenly defend an Iran-type deal with NK.
     
  11. g8tr80

    g8tr80 GC Hall of Fame

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    What exactly did we get from the Iran deal? Denuclearization? Hardly. We kicked the can down the road and for that we paid hundreds of billions of dollars and practically allowed Iran to set the terms on...well....everything.

    With NK. you start with the premise that you will denuclearize. Then you set steps leading to denuclearization. How is that being "generous" on our part? Now, if our deal with NK sucks as hard as the one we cut with Iran, then you have cause to bitch about it. But since we don't even have a deal in place, let's wait until we have one before we piss all over it.
     
  12. OaktownGator

    OaktownGator Guardian of the GC Galaxy Moderator VIP Member

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    Well. We have no deal to even debate.

    And we're probably a long time from understanding to what extent NK would uphold a deal if we make one, although smart money is that they will not. They never did before, and they're playing with house money now.

    It would be an enormous deviation in behavior for them to suddenly dismantle programs that took them many years and a lot of money to put into place... while under pressure to stop and with agreements in place to stop.

    But as long as we're optimistic on this NK denuclearization thing, I think I'll go on a Bigfoot hunt in Fort DeSoto this weekend.
     
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  13. wgbgator

    wgbgator Very Stable Genius Premium Member

    Apr 19, 2007
    Geo-hell
    They ended their nuclear weapons program with an inspection regime, so yeah, that's exactly what we got!

    And yes, its pretty generous that we'd allow discussion of trade, open borders with only the possibility that steps will be taken toward denuclearization at some unknown future date. That would be even more open-ended and generous than the Iran deal supposedly was.
     
  14. g8tr80

    g8tr80 GC Hall of Fame

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    They ended their program? Oh my, where to start? How about the sunset clauses baked into the agreement which makes all restrictions on Iran temporary? Also, once Iran perfects advanced centrifuges, which is allowed under the accord, Iran's nuclear-weapons ambitions cannot be checked. By 2025, They can start assembling these models. They have the parts. They are hidden. Probably on the revolutionary Guard Military bases which is where most of their nuclear research has taken place and which coincidentally are off limits to inspections per the agreement (your rigorous inspection regime at work). In 2025 they can jump right back in to developing a warhead which they then can put atop their ballistic missile, which also - by this agreement - they are allowed to continue to develop. Yepper, best deal EVER.

    And if you think that trying to entice NK into joining the civilized world by dangling economic trade agreements and open borders is a bad thing, then you must have obviously graduated from the Obama School of International Relations. You are once again projecting that it will be a bad deal, when in fact there is no deal to even remotely review. Also - and this is kind of an important distinction - NK is much different than Iran. NK has a nuclear weapon. That small fact is a real game changer. The horse is already out of the barn.
     
  15. wgbgator

    wgbgator Very Stable Genius Premium Member

    Apr 19, 2007
    Geo-hell
    Like I said, you find enormous fault with a pretty well structured Iran deal, that had enforcement mechanisms, but you are basically saying on the other hand "lets give NK stuff they want, normalize relations, and maybe that will put NK on the path to denuclearization. Lets see what happens, nothing to lose." The cognitive dissonance is astounding.
     
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  16. secgator

    secgator GC Hall of Fame

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    It's worked for some....the bigfoot deal.
     
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  17. OaktownGator

    OaktownGator Guardian of the GC Galaxy Moderator VIP Member

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    Wish me luck.

    I'll be armed with a nice tall Dark n Stormy, and BBQ tongs. Maybe he'll join be for a drink and a burger. :D
     
  18. secgator

    secgator GC Hall of Fame

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    So....Stormy Daniels has a friend? You going to take your lawyer along with you?
     
  19. OaktownGator

    OaktownGator Guardian of the GC Galaxy Moderator VIP Member

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    Just lots of latex. ;)

    To circle back to the thread title, never trust pulling out. :D
     
  20. G. Gordon Gator

    G. Gordon Gator GC Hall of Fame

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