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Wake Forest assistant punches a guy who dies from fall

Discussion in 'Nuttin' but Net' started by oragator1, Aug 9, 2018.

  1. WESGATORS

    WESGATORS Moderator VIP Member

    Apr 3, 2007
    It depends on the nature of the confrontation. At this point we don't know if either of these scenarios are in play (trying to pick extremes here):

    (a) Obnoxious drunk pounding on people's cars; if he does it to mine, I'm going to let him know he messed with the wrong dude; maybe I'm a little intoxicated too. I light the guy up, and wow, he's pretty messed up...I've gotta go. Let me bail so I can sober up and think about what my story is if I end up needing one.

    (b) Obnoxious drunk starts a fight with another guy, I think I can help. The drunk guy looks like he has the other guy in a disadvantaged position, and he's still pounding on him. I'm going to see what I can do to break it up. I knock his crazy butt out, problem solved. Other people there look like they are checking him out...my work here is done...morning comes, oh wow, that dude died and they're looking for...me! Let me go talk to an attorney and then go talk to the police, I have nothing to hide here.

    Again, these are two hypotheticals. In situation (a), that's not ok, big, big problem. But situation (b), that's not morally reprehensible on any level; I won't opine on to what extent that may be legal if at all, but if a bare knuckle blow is lethal, then he may have just saved somebody's life and the only life he risked was the one trying to take it. So yes, there are indeed situations when knocking someone out may be morally acceptable. We can get into how much he knew about the dispute, but even that will have a/b type extremes. At the end of the day, we need more facts about the situation in order to be able to determine more clearly what happened. That's why I said having a witness (or as many as you can get) that will vouch for the same story is important.

    When I first saw this story, it was dressed up really well in favor of the victim. Was he politely knocking on people's cars? Or was he a bit out of control and frustrated and acting crazy? Hopefully there's enough evidence all around for the most reasonable conclusion to be drawn. But it's like the old saying goes, nothing good happens after midnight.

    Go GATORS!
    ,WESGATORS
     
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  2. WESGATORS

    WESGATORS Moderator VIP Member

    Apr 3, 2007
    I guess the fact that he turned himself in makes me at least interested in whether or not there is another side to the story. I'd also like to know if there's any validity to the idea that the victim was physically confrontational with others; what was the extent of damage on the cars? I think more information will be revealed that will help us get a better picture of the situation. You may be right, but I guess I'd like to see if there's a counter-view presented in this scenario and to what extent it is supported. I'm skeptical (leaving the scene screams of puncher being under the influence, just an opinion), but still open-minded to facts presenting something else here. Every now and then the media gets it wrong when they jump all over a story like this (see Duke Lacrosse).

    Go GATORS!
    ,WESGATORS
     
  3. ArtVandelay

    ArtVandelay GC Hall of Fame

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    Maybe. If I see someone getting beat up, my first instinct is to try to break it up, not throw hay-makers. There are better ways to break it up than bashing someone in the face. Obviously we still need more info, but I would be surprised if it's scenario B.
     
  4. cincinnatigator

    cincinnatigator GC Hall of Fame

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    I truly believe the only productive place to play pickup is at a university gym where most players are fresh out of HS playing with the team concept still intact. After college I played pickup at any ghetto court I could find because I was extremely naive and thought it was cool (this was the period when And1 had their popular streetball series so I wanted to be "that one white guy"). I gave it up altogether after a few years because realistically all pickup games are polluted by people who think they're James Harden and play like Lavar Ball. I never got into words with anyone though. I think they probably assumed I was crazy or knew someone on the court. Last time I played pickup was years ago at Gainesville health and fitness and it was even too lame there. I'd rather play with a group of girls nowadays, at least they'd be cordial and unselfish.

    I've never been in a fight but everyone faces a few decisions at some point in their life where it's either diffuse the situation or take your chances by force. I worked retail selling firearms for a short period, and this one idiot thought he could buy a firearm without having his ID on him, literally handed me a piece of mail. I explained the law and he asked to speak to a manager. I told him he's not available right now, and it's state law that he's arguing against, not me. He took offense to my tone, and started yapping to his girl about me being racist. I told him I wouldn't sell a firearm to him now even if he produced ID and that's when he boiled over. I told him not to make a mistake or he'd be going to jail because he's on camera and his girlfriend begged him to leave the store. I get called every name he can think of on the way out and the classic "I'll be back" threat. Never saw him again of course. Best way to go about those situations is to remain calm and never in any circumstance throw the first punch. If this coach had any marks on him, he's in the right to defend himself but it didn't appear that he took any punches from the victim.
     
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  5. your_perfect_enemy

    your_perfect_enemy GC Hall of Fame

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    I didn't get that either. I had a guy mistake me for an Uber driver once and thought it was hilarious and it me an anecdote for a week or so.
     
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  6. akaGatorhoops

    akaGatorhoops VIP Member GC Columnist

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    I don’t really see the racial component of this story. At least not from what we know to this point.
    On a side note... I played on gville courts nearly every night as a freshman, often the only white kid. Never had an issue.
    My only real fight on a b-ball court was with a group of white kids at Mullins Park in Coral Springs.
    Jackasses are jackasses.... regardless of color.

    Im not sure who was the initial jackass here, but certain no one deserved to die. And I don’t believe anyone ever intended such.

    Just a sad, sad story.
     
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  7. cincinnatigator

    cincinnatigator GC Hall of Fame

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    Gainesville courts are a lot more pleasant than most places and was never the problem. An occasional bickering but nothing like what I've seen most places. If you play clean and keep a good attitude, you've got nothing to worry about unless they're just out for blood. I've had the only negative experiences with other white players as well.
    No one said the event itself was racially motivated. I was pointing out that there's a tendency to resort to physical violence more depending on where you grew up, no matter the skin color. He grew up in Philly, so I'm sure he was taught to throw punches at a young age out of necessity and he never grew out of that mentality.
     
  8. hobegator

    hobegator VIP Member

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    Very sad on both sides. 2 guys age 35 in the prime of life. One dead and the other's life permanently changed.

    The same scenario of a guy punching another guy in the face plays out 100+ times every night in any big city. It happens a few times every weekend night in tiny little Jupiter FL. Very few of the victims have a serious injury let alone die from the head injury. He must have hit the pavement hard with the initial impact to the head and no protection from the rest of his body. The face being unrecognizable to the family is understandable. By that time he had been intubated and likely had a craniotomy with tubes coming out everywhere and a swollen face from the impact as well as bloating from the surgery, fluids and medications. It's a terrible lasting image for the family.

    Again - very sad situation for all involved.
     
  9. danmann65

    danmann65 GC Hall of Fame

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    I thought I was hot shit and went to the public courts where Vernon Maxwell played. I got picked on a team with Mad Max and was doing ok. Playing ok defense and distributing the ball. Then I had an open three and I missed it short. It hit the rim the shot was on line. Mad Max called me over to him. I thought he was going to say something encouraging but instead he hard punched me in the chest and said white boys were allowed to make shots not miss them on his court. lol I never went back.
     
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  10. akaGatorhoops

    akaGatorhoops VIP Member GC Columnist

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    I’d be in jail. And probably pummeled.
    Lol.
    What an ass.
     
  11. danmann65

    danmann65 GC Hall of Fame

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    Well Vernon was 6 5 and I am 5 11. I think he would have put me in the hospital. I wasnt a bad high school point guard and Vernon was the best player I ever played against.
     
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  12. WESGATORS

    WESGATORS Moderator VIP Member

    Apr 3, 2007
    I still think it's time to correct the foolish notion of the games that his score contributed to the final result...but...he didn't actually play in the game. FLORIDA needs to pick, either forfeit his games or identify the mystery man who contributed those points.

    Go GATORS!
    ,WESGATORS
     
  13. danmann65

    danmann65 GC Hall of Fame

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    It is my opinion that we should forfeit the games but I am probably wrong about that. What Sloan did for him almost seems fatherly compared to some of the crap that happens now.
     
  14. cincinnatigator

    cincinnatigator GC Hall of Fame

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  15. ThePlayer

    ThePlayer VIP Member

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    He turned himself in because he was found on camera.
    He left the scene of a crime because of his character.
     
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  16. akaGatorhoops

    akaGatorhoops VIP Member GC Columnist

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    This may not be entirely fair.
    Perhaps he left the scene of a crime bc he was unaware of the crime.
    I’ve been in a fight a time or two... and when it was over, I left.
    This tragedy might have been like countless other fights or conflicts that happen daily... if not for the horric ending.
    But it is very possible the coach walked away fully unaware of that ending.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
  17. cincinnatigator

    cincinnatigator GC Hall of Fame

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    And ironically what you just said was more presumptuous. After you’ve fought someone I’m sure you at least walked away aware of the harm you inflicted and wouldn’t have left if the guy you were fighting showed zero sign of life. Negligence isn’t an excuse after knocking someone unconscious, especially when you’re 35 and intelligent. That’s nearly the same as a doing a hit and run. He purposely left the scene for his own benefit with the victim paying lifeless at the edge of a curb. You can’t honestly say he was unaware of what just happened.
     
  18. akaGatorhoops

    akaGatorhoops VIP Member GC Columnist

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    I made absolutely no presumeptions. My use of the words “perhaps” and “possible” are indicators that I am actually doing the opposite of presuming.

    Still, “presumptuous” was not the wording I was looking for... hence the edit. But you replied before the change.

    As I said above, I do think it is unfair to presume this man was aware of the extent of damage done... and knowingly walked away from the dying victim.

    I think it is possible he believed he simply knocked the guy out, and that the victim would soon stand up groggy and with a learned lesson.

    Also- I still haven’t heard if there were witnesses and others at the scene when the coach walked away, or if the victim was left entirely alone.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
  19. cincinnatigator

    cincinnatigator GC Hall of Fame

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    The victim hit his head on the corner of the curb after being knocked out. Blood would be pouring out of his head and he'd be motionless, and you don't think it's fair to presume the murderer was aware of the extent of damage done? You must think Jones is pretty stupid.
     
  20. GatorPlanet

    GatorPlanet GC Hall of Fame

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    Maxwell was a world-class jerk.