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V-Lo & radar guns

Discussion in 'Diamond Gators' started by jhfxof, Jun 25, 2023.

  1. jdgator

    jdgator VIP Member

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    Fred Martin was credited with teaching the split. Bruce Sutter was his student. Worked out pretty well for Sut.
     
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  2. 74nole

    74nole GC Hall of Fame

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    Bruce Sutter and Jack Morris were two of the best wheeling and dealing the split IMHO.
     
  3. GatorLurker

    GatorLurker GC Hall of Fame

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    Splitters are a refined version of the forkball. The forkball is a very old pitch and mostly relegated to the ashbin of pitches.
     
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  4. jhfxof

    jhfxof GC Hall of Fame

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    I heard Ben discussing it all prior to watching the docu mentioned above.. He basically just repeated all the info from there. So not really his opinion as I thought it was to start with lol Just science really.
     
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  5. jhfxof

    jhfxof GC Hall of Fame

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    Still say they were accidents trying to find new change up grips.. what other reason would make you decide to jam a ball between 2 fingers and throw it hard as you can?? lol
     
  6. GatorLurker

    GatorLurker GC Hall of Fame

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    The "hard as you can" is to make it look like a fastball. Forkballs and splitters have low rotation and move differently from a circle change also thrown to look like a fastball.
     
  7. jhfxof

    jhfxof GC Hall of Fame

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    Im aware of differences of the pitches. Doesnt change my guess on why someone first decided to try that type of grip. same with the circle change.. All were experiments to start with & all attempts to perfect the change up ..which is really all they all are. differnt types of change up.. JMO

    Circle, split. fork, palm ball, screw ball.... all technically change ups imo.
     
  8. GatorLurker

    GatorLurker GC Hall of Fame

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    Might as well throw in curveball and slider as they are all off speed pitches.

    Screwball is more like a curveball with opposite spin and not a change. Very few could master it at a high level. Mike Marshall pitching for the Dodgers in the 1970's had a great one. I would think that pitchers with a really good two-seamer might be able to throw that pitch.

    And all these different pitches that you lump into "change up" all look different at the plate.

    And you forgot the Eephus pitch.

    And two-seam, four-seam and cutter fastballs are not just fastballs.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2023
  9. 74nole

    74nole GC Hall of Fame

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    jhf—

    Still, I’d rather listen to a real baseball guy that played at the highest level and played that position talk about it over some analytics person rambling numbers without any real working knowledge of the game.
     
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  10. 4everaGator

    4everaGator GC Hall of Fame

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    Fernando Valenzuela threw a lot of screwballs
     
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  11. 74nole

    74nole GC Hall of Fame

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    Yes he did—across the history of the game he was one of the top five pitchers IMHO that had great success utilizing his screwball. The other four (at least in my eyes) were Christy Mathewson, Warren Spahn, Mike Cuellar, and Tug McGraw.

    For whatever reasons it seems that there’s not a lot of interest in making the pitch a working part of today’s pitching repertoires.
     
  12. GatorLurker

    GatorLurker GC Hall of Fame

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    I think that if you have a natural two seamer with a lot of arm side motion you can learn to throw a screwball without messing up your arm. You already impart the rotation required with a natural motion but just need to throw it slower and with a bit higher spin rate. And it would come out of the same arm slot.

    But if you have a natural two seamer with a lot of armside motion you probably are not looking at a screwball as a pitch to throw. You already have a pitch that breaks that way with some sink. A straight change might be more effective.
     
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  13. jhfxof

    jhfxof GC Hall of Fame

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    screwball was a stretch I guess.. Anything w/ same type of spin as fast ball w/ less v lo is my definition of a change.

    obviously the others you mention dont fall under that definition. IMo splitters, forks do,

    Although a slider is meant to appear as a fastball, but obviously not same rotation so easier to pick up that its not a fastball.

    My original point/guess.. was that all these different pitches/grips now were probably first discovered tinkering w/ change up grips.. again just my guess.
     
  14. mlc5977

    mlc5977 Premium Member

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    Carl Hubbel?
     
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  15. GatorLurker

    GatorLurker GC Hall of Fame

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    Bringing Up Baby and My Man Godfrey are two of the greatest screwball comedies of all time.

    In cricket they call it a googly. Spin bowlers threw whatever they call the ball with a lot of spin and once it hit the pitch it would take sharp turn.

    Never played the game but I knew a lot of guys from India that did.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2023