## Welcome home, fellow Gator.

###### The Gator Nation's oldest and most active insider community

Discussion in 'Diamond Gators' started by jhfxof, Jun 25, 2023.

1. ### CrusherGC Hall of Fame

5,105
1,100
2,143
Apr 19, 2007
I've had a sneaking suspicion that there was something off about the plethora of 100mph hurlers (esp at the college level). Your post seems to indicate only a marginal increase in pitching velocity since the early 1990's which doesn't surprise me at all.

• Winner x 1
2. ### jhfxofGC Hall of Fame

2,784
114
263
Apr 21, 2007
yep. and IMo marginal in generous. I still say just more of them now, but not anyone throwing any harder then hardest throwers always were.

Also have lower seam balls now which helps vlo a little. More of college variable, MLB been low seam forever.

• Agree x 1
• Informative x 1
3. ### jhfxofGC Hall of Fame

2,784
114
263
Apr 21, 2007
Another excerpt from the link..falls in line w/ what Ben was saying.

Today's pitch speeds are measured from 50 feet away from the plate, but Ryan's was measured at approx. 10 feet. Pitch speeds drop 8-11 mph (average 9 mph) from 50 ft away to the front of the plate. So we must add 6-8 mph to the speed measured by Rockwell in order to be equivalent to today's readings.

Therefore, Nolan Ryan's pitching speed as measured today would be at minimum 106 mph and could have been as high as 110 mph.

How did we arrive at 108.1 mph? The facts are 100.9 at 10 feet, plus 9 mph drop per 50 feet. So add 7.2 mph (9/50*40) to 100.9 to get 108.1 mph.

The speed of the ball as it crossed the plate would have been 99.1 mph - calculated as 100.9 at 10 feet less (9/50X10) or 1.8 mph. u3

• Agree x 1
4. ### tegator80GC Hall of Fame

12,682
20,921
3,363
May 29, 2007
Richmond, VA
Pitchers pitch. Hitters hit. Other than some training regime upgrades, baseball is baseball through the ages (except for the aluminum bats and maybe jazzed up baseballs). If a pitcher can legitimately get it into the middle 90s to the low 100s, not many hitters are going to touch them at the college level. And they would be like gold: highly desirous and damn rare.

I would concur that something does not add up.

• Agree x 3
5. ### jhfxofGC Hall of Fame

2,784
114
263
Apr 21, 2007
velocity isnt the hitters problem today.. pros can hit 100+ w/ eyes closed if know its coming..lol

the evolutiion of the splitter, slider etc. is the problem

Speaking of the splitter/fork.. anyone else think this was an accident, trying to find new ways to grip a change up? My theory anyways. But thats really all it is. A change that tumbles,, good changes do that anyways.

Hal Baird was the 'father' of the splitter in college w/ Hudson his first guinea pig..lol

Last edited: Jun 26, 2023
6. ### 74noleGC Hall of Fame

7,793
3,783
3,018
Apr 9, 2007
Marianna, Fl

I remember Mike Scott throwing the slower velo tumbling/diving fork ball at the MLB level with success. To me anyway, same action pitch as the splitter just not as much velo or abrupt change of direction.

• Agree x 1
• Disagree Bacon! x 1
7. ### GatorLurkerGC Hall of Fame

9,011
3,798
2,843
Apr 8, 2007
Velocity on a fastball is very overrated. A 90 mph fastball down in the zone located well with movement is a much better pitch than a 98 mph fastball with no movement belt high over the middle.

But I hear you about speed measurements over the years. I knew some old timers that saw Feller, Ryan and Walter Johnson all pitch. They all said that they were all very fast but who knows which one was the fastest. They all had their own opinion. We have some data on Feller and Ryan but no data on Walter Johnson. Walter Johnson was pretty much just a fastball pitcher in a era where not that many players were looking to go yard. Certainly a lot fewer than the more modern pitchers.

• Agree x 1
8. ### GatorLurkerGC Hall of Fame

9,011
3,798
2,843
Apr 8, 2007
I like to think of it as a high tech knuckleball: Low spin rate and devilish final movement. A good knuckler has some "jitter" before its final movement and a much slower spin rate. The huge advantage of the splitter is that it can look like a fastball when it is delivered. No way to throw a knuckler and have it look like a fastball coming out of your hand.

• Like x 1
• Agree x 1
9. ### GatorLurkerGC Hall of Fame

9,011
3,798
2,843
Apr 8, 2007
Watched a documentary of the fastball today on Amazon Prime. I learned that they did have some data on Walter Johnson but effectively it was at a distance of about 68 feet. Making "corrections" for where the pitch was measured showed that Ryan and Feller and Chapman are all about the same. I have serious concerns about the corrections. First of all the drag force varies with the velocity squared so a faster pitch slows down faster and they just assumed that all of these pitchers' pitches slow down the same amount per foot.

And we have no idea about wind on the days the measuements were taken let alone temperature and humidity.

One thing lost in the discussion is that in Walter Johnson's day he was allowed to throw "dark" baseballs. Balls were not tossed out if they got dirty and pitchers were even allowed to throw "shine" balls that were intentionally darkened. Not throwing pristine white baseballs must have made it a lot harder to pick up the pitch.

• Like x 1
• Informative x 1
10. ### jhfxofGC Hall of Fame

2,784
114
263
Apr 21, 2007
Now I know whay Im watching tonight..thx

11. ### GatorLurkerGC Hall of Fame

9,011
3,798
2,843
Apr 8, 2007
Being from birth a White Sox fan I had to learn a lot about the early days of baseball because there wasn't much after 1919.

1959 World Series.

After the 2005 World Series I heard from many of my Southside friends that many graves were decorated with White Sox pennants.

I was no longer an MLB fan but I watched that series and cried because I knew so many fans that never got to see that.

Last edited: Jun 29, 2023
• Like x 1
12. ### jhfxofGC Hall of Fame

2,784
114
263
Apr 21, 2007
At least you had Bo Jackson & Frank Thomas.

13. ### flgatr1VIP Member

5,808
5,735
2,088
Apr 3, 2007
jacksonville, florida
But I doubt that home runs are down.

14. ### jhfxofGC Hall of Fame

2,784
114
263
Apr 21, 2007
I watched it. Pretty good. A lot of same info in that link I posted above.

So ..can a fastball rise?? I think if enough backspin its possible.

watched the Dock Ellis docu after.. entertaining..lol

15. ### GatorLurkerGC Hall of Fame

9,011
3,798
2,843
Apr 8, 2007
Fastballs don't rise. Not even the very best four seamers have enough lift due to rotation to make that happen. Even with high seams on the ball to generate more lift. What they can do is "ride" and by that I mean that they don't fall as much as would be expected. Really good ones do not fall very much but don't rise.

Is it possible that a four seamer could rise? Technically yes, but I don't think anybody that has thrown a baseball has actually done it. If anybody did my money would be on Steve Dalkowski.

I get what those great hitters were saying but the fact is that the ball just didn't drop as much as they expected so it looked to them like they were rising. They were moving in a direction that was higher than they expected and it happens so fast that it looks like the ball jumps up.

The Dock Ellis no-hitter was a story that could not be made up.

16. ### GatorLurkerGC Hall of Fame

9,011
3,798
2,843
Apr 8, 2007
And Luke Appling, Luis Aparicio, Nellie Fox, Hoyt Wilhelm, Harold Baines and for a few years the one guy that should be in the HOF but isn't mostly because he pissed off sports writers Dick Allen.

I know that a lot of folks were pissed off when Harold Baines was named to the HOF based on career numbers but they probably never saw him play before his knee injuries. OMG he was incredible but played on a really crappy team so very few got to know how awesome he was.

• Agree x 1
17. ### jhfxofGC Hall of Fame

2,784
114
263
Apr 21, 2007
Yeah its possible,,Ill leave it at that..lol

I guess all the sidearm , knuckle draggers fastballs techinically rise.. Like a softball rise ball..lol

18. ### jhfxofGC Hall of Fame

2,784
114
263
Apr 21, 2007
I was a Baines fan, at least w/ Os. .. I wont single out any of the many I dont agreee w/ in HoF

Ill just say the HoFs in all sports dont really do much for me anymore. Baseball for as much as whos not in as who is.

19. ### Gatorrick22GC Hall of Fame

83,886
24,996
4,613
Apr 3, 2007
So, if you use other sports to compare skills and other metrics like this to say college or NFL football, the players back then with half the science in sports medicine and training... those NFL players were also as good or better, like that might have been in baseball? I know different sports and different metrics...

That would not change the fact that Nolan Ryan was one the best fastball pitchers in the history of the sport. He was good/great, but was his fast ball comparable to 110 mph measured in today's timed pitching rules/technique? That would be amazing to see. I'll bet we can see a video comparison to prove Ben McDonald's point... or not.

Maybe Ben is right about how much slower our pitching is today than in Ryan's day. But I have to think the baseballs are smother now than they were when Ryan was pitching, and that might skew the difference in speed. Meaning maybe today's balls might NOT slowdown 10 full mph but maybe more like 5 mph.

It's something to consider, becasue the baseballs today are NOT the same as they were in Ryan's time. The stitching is not the same.

Last edited: Jul 17, 2023
• Like x 1
20. ### jdgatorVIP Member

2,451
608
2,143
Apr 3, 2007
Ben is a gem.
I've know Kyle since we were both on HS camp circuit, his personality hasn't changed much. It's an 'acquired taste'.

• Fistbump/Thanks! x 1