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UK asst coach swept up in Nike corruption investigation

Discussion in 'Nuttin' but Net' started by Ahab, Aug 18, 2019.

  1. GratefulGator

    GratefulGator GC Legend

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    This is classic deflecting. We are talking about Cal's monumental underachieving considering all the insane talent he's had at uk.

    I'm unsure why you want to bring other coaches into this discussion, unless as the old saying goes, "Misery loves company."
     
  2. gatorjjh

    gatorjjh A Gator with a Glass half full attitude Moderator VIP Member

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  3. In fairness, Coach Cal has never said that his objective was to win championships. He has repeatedly said that his goal was to get players in the NBA. On that metric he has done well. Of course, over time it becomes somewhat self fulfilling as players who are expected to be OADs go to Kentucky because Kentucky has gotten other OADs into the NBA. This can be compared as a % of all expected OADs who actually go to the NBA, assuming we can find an acceptable unbiased ranking of who are considered OADs before starting their college careers, but, I’m a college basketball fan. I frankly don’t care, I care about college ball and UF. I think this is bad for college ball because you have a concentration of great talent that underachieves because, realistically, winning college championships is not their primary objective either.
     
  4. jeffphillips21

    jeffphillips21 GC Hall of Fame

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    I hate Cal as much (or more) than the next guy, but it's time to start paying players - at least a stipend. It's ridiculous that everyone else besides the talent that drives a multi-billion dollar industry gets paid. They can't even make money off their own likeness. It's time to get the NCAA out of the 19th century.
     
  5. REM08

    REM08 GC Hall of Fame

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    Not deflecting at all. It's very relevant. Your insinuation is that Cal is some sort of failure despite the fact that you can't name many more successful coaches.
     
  6. GatorLurker

    GatorLurker VIP Member

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    So he is the new Dean Smith?
     
  7. GratefulGator

    GratefulGator GC Legend

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    No coach is more successful than Cal for doing less with more.
    With all the talent Cal has had, he should have at least 3-4 titles at UK, instead of just one.
    No coach is even close to Cal when it comes to underachievement.
     
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  8. tegator80

    tegator80 GC Hall of Fame

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    If I am not mistaken, I believe his goal was to make as much insane income off the Kentucky faithful as he can. His tool of choice is to bring in as much crazy talent to pass through the program to better digs as needed to maintain his goal.

    In that light I think Cal has done a remarkable job.
     
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  9. REM08

    REM08 GC Hall of Fame

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    So you're essentially saying that the coach who is, by most measures, either the most successful or the second most successful coach in the past 10 years is also the most underachieving? Seems a good example of being able to twist something arbitrarily to fit a narrative.

    If Cal's the best at underachieving but also one of the best at attaining actual success, I guess I'll take it! There's maybe one school that wouldn't trade success over the last 10 years with Kentucky but I guess you've got your own standard!

    You know, now that I think about it. To my knowledge, neither you or I have underachieved with as much talent as Cal has had! Technically, that's a fact. Should probably go on our business cards!
     
  10. SeabudGator

    SeabudGator GC Legend

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    OK. I will bite. But first I will agree that this is "subjective", not least of which because we have to define what "talent" is and what "doing less" means. I'm going to look at a basketball recruiting ranking article (College basketball’s 11 greatest recruiting classes of the decade - yes, subjective, but you can't deny that UK is almost always top 5 in recruiting) and at what MOST Kentucky fans see as a successful season - winning a title.

    First, some history. Ignoring Gillespie (2 years, utter failure), the last 3 UK coaches have each one 1 title. Pitino in 8 years, Tubby in 10 and Cal in 10. Cal is par for the course, although there is no doubt that Cal has recruited at a higher level than Tubby and probably Pitino. He has done less than Tubby with more talent.

    Reviewing the article on the 11 greatest recruiting classes in hoops, UK has Nos. 2 and 3. In the last 10 years, Jay Wright has 2 titles at Villanova and 1 mention on that list, with Tony Bennett having 1 title and 1 team on that list. Wright has definitely done more with less (including less resources/history) and Bennett definitely has less talent and has equaled Cal in Titles.

    Coaches K and Williams each have 2 titles, clearly more. Think they each have sold out any academic mission like Cal to the one and done circus so talent likely equal over time (though cal did this soul first). Definitely have done "more" though perhaps not "with less".

    UConn has 2 titles with 2 different coaches. That is more. Louisville, UK's nemesis has the same number of titles as UK. They have no mentions on the recruit list. More with less.

    Now, if you want to say "titles are not everything" - I'll put Izzo up against anybody. I'd put Donovan above Cal for sure for "More with less". And I never hear a UK fan crowing about a sweet 16. But I will come back to this.

    All this is subjective and you have every right to love Cal. I have every right to state what I see: Cal actively created the 1 and done path thru UK with utter disregard for any academic mission. "These kids will be millionaires" you say. Fine, I say, but I wouldnt want to utterly sell out my school's academic mission - grey it with scholarships for kids that are academically borderline? OK. But Cal just crosses the line with a smug - to me.

    Even worse, he has no notion of developing a team. As a fan, I love seeing a kid grow as a human - kind of what college is for. Watching cheese or the '04s brings tears to my eyes as I got to see them as they struggled and grew over years. That is all out the window with Cal/UK. Yes, he gets phenomenal talent but they don't grow. You can argue that since his talent is all young he actually has "less" than the recruiting rankings predict. And I would agree - but he chooses and sells that path. So, at best, he actually has "less talent" by his own design, but he still doesn't get "more results".

    And the above matters when you argue "championships" are not everything. Final fours are "doing more". It was with Cheese for me because I say that kid grow and give his all, but do you really feel that way with a kid who is at UK for 6 months and gone. Or does the taste of last defeat with a one year fling, with no redemption or growth, satisfy you as a fan?

    I would take Izzo, Wright, Bennett, Williams, K (douche though he/roy are), Donovan, Few and maybe others over Cal. Hell, I'd take White over Cal right now b/c I think he can get a natty every 10 years and I'd rather do it his way than Cal's. Cal gets less by design b/c he is so 1 and done focused, and I wouldn't want that no matter how many elite 8s he gets - b/c his teams will always underperform at crunch time as they are young (and his coaching is so-so to me). Plus, I believe he is a Pitino-esque slime ball that just hasn't bean nailed (teams always take the fall as he walks off). One opinion.
     
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  11. REM08

    REM08 GC Hall of Fame

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    I'm glad you posted and completely respect your opinion on this. You weren't disrespectful and I certainly hope my responses don't seem to be. We clearly see things differently but that's obviously fine.

    I don't believe that titles are the totality of any measure for success. Here's a current UK thread where fans discuss this very thing: Final Four as the Standard | CatsIllustrated.com The notion that the only successful season is one where a title is won means UK has only 8 successful seasons ever. That's obviously not the case - just like Florida has had more than 2.

    This is an example of what I put above. You can't possibly believe that Tubby "did more" than Cal. Tubby completely inherited a team coming off of a title game appearance and led them to a title his first year. In the years that followed, he never even made another final four - you know, with players he recruited. I know you're saying this is all subjective, but IMO its not reasonable to state that Tubby had more success than Cal.

    You say this is all subjective but then state things like they're facts. I digress though, as how Cal runs a program is another topic.

    This is an interesting point but it actually kinda gives Cal credit in a way. You're right, he always has lots of talent but its typically very young talent. No one should cry for him based on the fact that, yes, he is in control of who he targets. But the fact of the matter is that when Cal gets a recruit, he has that recruit for a lot less time than other coaches do. This makes a problem in doing comparisons like you are. If Cal has 3 elite big men 3 years in a row - but they're 3 different players. Does that mean he had 3 times the "talent" of a coach who had 1 talented big man for 3 years? You see the point.

    What satisfies me as a fan may be an interesting topic but I don't really see its connection to whether or not Cal is a successful coach. Recently Cal started this mantra of his "second 10 years" or something like that - referencing that his next 10 years at UK are just now starting. Look online to see UK fans reaction to this. Its very positive. Clearly he's not viewed as though he's failed for 9 years and succeeded once - all while not caring about academics or building a team. Fans, overall, seem very happy.
     
  12. REM08

    REM08 GC Hall of Fame

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    [​IMG]

    Jordan Sperber
    @hoopvision68


    Updated NCAA Tournament wins by coach since Calipari took the Kentucky job:


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]



    There's another chart somewhere that showed no coach, in the last 10 years, has performed better in the tournament relative to their seed than Cal.




    So, it that he can be one of the most successful coaches in the sport over the last decade AND be the biggest underachiever at the same time? If so, I can live with that. I'd argue its pretty meaningless though.

    If not, it seems the underachieving title isn't supported by data.
     
  13. channingcrowderhungry

    channingcrowderhungry Premium Member

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    Coach with the most vacated Final Fours- John Calipari
     
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  14. SeabudGator

    SeabudGator GC Legend

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    Your responses were not disrespectful (however re-read the paragraph where you say I "seemed to state things as fact." Note the "I say" and "to me".")

    This is the crux. First, please don't restate the question as "whether Cal is a successful coach." The question was what he did with the talent he gets.

    Second, what is more important than a fan's attachment to their team? As a fan you see what comes in the door, watch it and then see it go out the door. I don't want a coach who lets kids skip classes, act out on the court, or relies on 1 and done rent a player. I have every right to view that as success. Mary Wise has never won a national title at UF but is successful. Rick Pitino has won titles and I would not consider him successful if he were my team's coach. I get you like Cal, maybe you think he is a victim of a smear campaign in the past, and is helping "these kids". You're right to think so. Mine to disagree as to what a "successful coach" does.

    Finally, you clearly understood my point that 3 1 and done bigs does not equal 1 big for 3 years, and you know that cal recruits to 1 and dones. But you can't use his reliance on 1/dones as both sword and shield. I believe Cal builds inexperienced but talented teams by design that will get decently far in the tourney on talent and then choke near the finals. It is the nature of youth and he lives on that elixir IMO. Other coaches are more conventional and get "less talent" but more titles, or they get more titles with similar talent (Duke/UNC), or they get less "on court results" year by year but capture magic with some multi-year players (Billy). That is more successful... to me. If you and UK are stoked on a revolving door and national attention knowing youth will bite your ass every year, then he is successful to you (but the question is more with less).

    How much you want to bet that cal is not your coach in 10 years? Any amount to the other's favorite charity. Dead serious. By the way, he would be 70 that year - "Second 10 years" my ass. Just another Cal sales job. He will be gone of his on volition or ride away as the NCAA closes in... and I will laugh at UK fans that bought into "slick Cal." Of course....all just my opinion!!![/QUOTE]
     
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  15. tegator80

    tegator80 GC Hall of Fame

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    Four words: Put..down...the...Kool aid. Okay, Kool aid is considered two words but the meaning is still the same.



    For your own good, PLEASE see what is happening to your program.
     
  16. REM08

    REM08 GC Hall of Fame

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    What he does with the talent he gets is completely arbitrary. Its his job to win - period. Coaches can go about this a number of different ways - all depending on talent to some degree. Cal gets more talent than other coaches (except for K). That's part of his job. Good for him for getting this talent. But it doesn't move the bar as far as what he ultimately is tasked with doing. Tubby did a decent amount with the talent he got - considering how relatively little this was at times, and was not nearly as successful as Cal. By your arbitrary measure, Tubby did better than Cal. But no one would say he was more successful and this ultimately cost him his job.

    And please don't pretend like discussing what a complete underachiever Cal is isn't similar to questioning his level of success. Its a swipe at him, suggesting incompetence.

    Nothing. I agree with you here. I just dismissed it to try to stay on track. Its just a different topic IMO. I like discussing that topic also and think its definitely worth discussing. I agree with you though. Ultimately, that is more important than even success. If you win but lose the fans - you lose. If you lose but keep the fans - however unlikely that is, theoretically that guy might keep his job because the money continues to stream in.

    I'd argue UK fans, in general, seem to be supportive of how Cal runs the UK program.

    You keep talking about titles but success includes other factors - even according to most UK fans. I posted some compelling numbers that most any college basketball fan would believe are important measures of success that, for most fans, bring about satisfaction.

    Haha - we agree here! I don't believe that he'll be here another 10 years! I honestly didn't think he'd be here 10 total. It IS another Cal sale's job. I just don't mind that.
     
  17. cincinnatigator

    cincinnatigator GC Hall of Fame

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    Calipari's assistants have been corrupt for decades. Think a kid like Dajuan Wagner goes to Memphis of all places because of Cal? Nope. Think Derrick Rose went there for Cal's guidance? Nope. The whole thing screamed of corruption from the time he got there. Think he told his staff to quit once he got to UK? Nope. I don't need evidence just like I don't need evidence to prove that the sun is very hot.
     
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  18. REM08

    REM08 GC Hall of Fame

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    Jordan Sperber
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    Same graph grouped by school. Based solely on the seeding they have received since 2010, Kentucky would be expected to win 17.3 tournament games. They've won 28 games


    [​IMG]


    4:49 PM · Mar 11, 2019·Twitter Web Client



    Also relevant to this discussion.
     
  19. Gatorhead

    Gatorhead GC Hall of Fame

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    Had a similar discussion with REM awhile back on this subject.

    My point at the time was that when looking at KY basketball historically Cal comes in "Average" with National Titles, one (1) in ten years.

    He is Above Average with Final Four appearances.

    So while I can't define what REM considers great / successful / KY Standard - I do think it is fair for critics to point out that in terms of Championships he may be underperforming slightly.

    By every other measure I would suggest it's tough to criticize, at least in terms of win's and loss's.

    I do think that many Gator fans would suggest their lack of appreciation for Cal
    regarding recruiting. I think an argument may be made that Cal / KY combined to create a paradigm shift in CBB recruiting. A shift still being evaluated and understood.
     
  20. REM08

    REM08 GC Hall of Fame

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    I remember that! While I agree with most everything you said above, I bolded the part that might surprise some that I'd agree with.

    There's no getting around the high number of missed opportunities UK fans have experienced under Cal. Even as positive as I seem about Cal (keep in mind the context of my discussion of him on here is usually defending him from pretty extreme statements, etc - likely making me seem super positive all of the time about Cal) the missed chances eat at me. Chances at a title are SO precious and you never know when they'll come around again.

    I feel 2 ways about this: 1) Man, Cal has missed on a lot of chances! I'd list it year by year but it'd probably just upset me. Y'all already know how painful that kinda stuff is. 2) Cal has kept us consistently more than I'd expect from any coach and better than any coach when you look at consistent deep tourney runs.

    Tubby didn't miss on as many chances because he didn't have UK setup to be in contention nearly as frequently.

    Every fan has a different criteria but I want whoever the coach of my team is to have us in the mix as often as humanly possible. I don't want years where I know half way through the year (or earlier) that we don't have a shot. Given my criteria, It'd make sense why I'm happy with Calipari then.