Discussion in 'Nuttin' but Net' started by meagator, Dec 12, 2020.
Latest update just came out from UF on Twitter. Still Critical but Stable.
Tbh that sounds awful.
Interesting stuff. There is still quite a bit we don’t know about the human body, pretty scary it can just “happen” without a medical examiner even finding anything structural.
That girls situation reminds of another Gator that had post viral related heart issues, Allan Cheney. He had an icd put in. I believe he retired from basketball and/or UF wouldn’t let him play due to the high risk, he tried to come back and play somewhere else and had an incident similar to this UW player. Just shows the drive some of these athletes have to play ball that even with a device implanted in their heart they still want to play.
Not one word whether Keyontae is conscious.
I feel that no real change probably isn't a good thing. I keep checking constantly for any updates just praying for a positive update.
It just sounds like we are all hoping for a miracle at this point.
Worrying update indeed.
The lack of non-official news on the web is troubling to me - not that I deserve to know anything more than what is out there. But we all know how many channels social media provides for updating situations like that. Sometimes its right, sometimes its wrong, and sometimes its just plain fiction. But the lack of information since yesterday makes me nervous.
Again, I am entitled to nothing more than what has been released by UF and his family. It just feels like its bad news. Sure hope Im wrong. So Ill just continue to pray KJ bounces out of that bed and heads back to Gainesville this afternoon.
I’m new here as a tOSU fan, but that article is moving up the right pathways in explanations. As an FYI, I’ve worked in multiple ERs for the past 5 years, and also at the Ross Heart Hospital at tOSU.
Watching the footage of the collapse, and the footage afterwards, including him being stretchered off the court, which I only saw once during the Northwestern/Illinois halftime, Johnson appeared completely unresponsive and ashen in color.
I’m sure in hindsight, some things may have been able to be done ASAP, but no team doctors or athletic trainers are initially preparing to see an event like that, including the medical transport services at the game.
Before I proceed, I have a background in racing as well, so when there are traumatic crashes, you typically don’t get immediate reports back in the status of people, so no news is good news in regards to him still being alive, however everything after that I’d up in the air. Guessing anything else is simply conjecture and doesn’t really mean anything....good or bad.
now, I’m not going to get crazy with anatomy here, but my PRESUMPTION is that he had exercise induced ventricular tachycardia/fibrillation. I’m NOT saying that is what happened, as there are enumerated other things that could have happened, including a spontaneous intracranial bleed, which does happen from time to time....hell my 15 year old niece was just flown to Toledo St. Vincent’s with flaccid paralysis on her left side due to an arterio-venous fistula rupturing in her brain.
At any rate, African Americans, especially taller ones, have higher rush of vascular complications in the brain and heart. I will be very interested to see if Johnson had any prior circumstances or symptoms in the prior months that he withheld.
My PERSONAL interpretation is that he likely had VTACH and/or VFIB causing him to syncopate simply due to having decreased cardiac output. What’s interesting is that Gathers, possibly Johnson, and to above articled Washington women’s player had their arrhythmias after large plays and/or timeouts or breaks in action. You tend to have changes in epinephrine with big plays in conjunction with some subtle vagal and cardiac preload response standing or sitting then standing. Put that together with an ever varying heart rate, and you are at risk for a cardiac arrhythmia such as VTACH/VFIB.
Now VTACH/VFIB, is an electrical conduction issue, however it doesn’t necessarily manifest as the primary cause. As an example, Hank Gathers had hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, which is typically a structural heart defect that secondarily causes VTACH/VFIB. In his case, he supposedly went into exercise induced VTACH, which caused him to collapse....I’m guessing he then exacerbated into Ventricular Fibrillation which is a very fatal rhythm if not shocked and/or medically managed.
So, I’m presuming he went into VTACH and/or VFIB, syncopated, and then the staff felt a pulse that was weak and erratic. This would explain Johnson’s very ashen appearance appearance due to lack of perfusion of blood....mind you could also be due to hypoxia/not breathing, but the concept is still the same regardless of if you are not perfusing blood, or if you are and it is not oxygenated.
What happened afterwards?.....nobody knows obviously. They may have quickly gotten him out of the rhythm with a shock and medical management, but they have him closely monitored, awaiting further testing, scans, and consultations. It’s also possible he had a long downtime, and the lack of blood flow has left him with untreatable brain damage to a mild or severe degree, just like a cardiac arrest patient.
My personal opinion is that he is probably awake, but closely guarded, due to having an arrhythmia. He probably has pending studies and scans, with cardiology and electrophysiology consultations. Luckily, this happened on a court, and not at his home alone like most people.
I just want one damn photo of him with his eyes open and a thumbs up. I would feel so much better. I just hope that is even an option.
Also this from the New Yorker article. KJ had just exploded for an alleyoop.
"Another theory is that basketball players’ movement patterns are different from those of other athletes. The constant stop-and-start surges of high intensity, with marked changes in dynamics such as running and jumping, seem distinctive. In football, for instance, the average play might last six seconds. In basketball, minutes may go by before there is a break. Soccer and lacrosse players are spread wide on a field, while basketball players are confined to a small, hardwood court, giving them less time to decelerate. Basketball players generally change their speed much more frequently than, say, cross-country runners, which may lead to increased variations in basketball players’ heart rates."
Very informative. Thank you doctor, for taking the time to sign up here and provide us with this. It's very helpful and shows your level of compassion
I can’t even put into words how happy this would make me.
I get that, Jeff, but it doesn't really give us anything. Millions of people play basketball every day. I still play in leagues and I'm over 40 years old. There has to be a more specific explanation than just basketball is hard on your heart in general. Basketball is rough on me physically, but let me tell you, anytime I played soccer I felt like it was kicking my ass cardio-wise.
Great insight, and I hope you stick around and keep giving us some context as news comes out.
Doc, if it was VTACH or VFIB, wouldn't they have immediately used an aed on him? Those machines are everywhere these days. If he was having a ventricular arrythmia, why would they wait until they could move him to zap him?
Basketball does present some unique circumstances. You are almost always moving but at different intensities and varying spikes in blood pressure. Football is very anaerobic. A football game only lasts about 4 minutes, as you give explosive intensity for 5-10 seconds, then you rest between plays. Soccer is more aerobic but a lot of times they rest walking down the field...even do, you are constantly in motion. Basketball is quite different as the court is much smaller than a soccer field, so you are sprinting and cutting within a defined space, and jumping. The heart rate would be higher and more variable in a basketball game compared to a soccer game. That’s not to say these conditions only exist in basketball. This has happened to athletes all over the world, in almost every sport. I think it is more prevalent in basketball as you have the sport itself, and a large demographic of very tall, African American players, who are at higher risk.
It makes sense, scientifically, but as a lifelong basketball player, I don't feel more taxed playing basketball than I do playing soccer or when I ran track. You do get time to rest on plays in basketball, too. I just don't think the book answer matches reality in this situation. I'm black, FWIW, but I don't think it really adds anything to the comments I just made.
great question, however numerous times AEDs aren’t deployed in this situation unless they are certain of what they are diagnosing at that time. They may have felt a fast, erratic pulse, and been unsure. Trust me, when you get athletes pumping at 200+bpm in a normal game scenario, it’s not easy to discern between a racing heart beat from the activity or a fast cardiac arrhythmia such as VTACH. Likewise, AEDs are fantastic for people in isolated areas, however they may have wanted to move him to an ambulance or more stable location before shocking him, as if they had a differential diagnosis of several things, they would be hesitant to shock him out of a perfectly good rhythm and into a bad one. It seems logical to just throw it on and give it a whirl, but as health professionals, I’m sure they kept their options open, and knew full well the timetable of what they had to work with, and their proximity to an ER where he could be managed better. That’s not to say they did nothing. They likely hooked him up as soon as he got in the ambulance, recognized the arrhythmia, and shocked him as necessary, and administered meds prior to reaching the ER.