Welcome home, fellow Gator.

The Gator Nation's oldest and most active insider community
Join today!

Thousands of Haitians

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by rivergator, Sep 17, 2021.

  1. gator_lawyer

    gator_lawyer Premium Member

    8,513
    2,653
    1,728
    Oct 30, 2017
    I said "attempted" because a Trump judge blocked it. But they considered the consequences. They also considered the illegality of the policy and the harm being done to asylum seekers in Mexico (kidnapping, rape, torture, murder, etc.).

    There is "no control[ling]" the border. It's like saying the solution to violent crime is to just catch all the bad guys.

    We need to abide by our asylum laws.
     
  2. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan GC Hall of Fame

    8,599
    623
    458
    Apr 9, 2007
    It's hard to set a limit on population. But I know, the US still has plenty of space to grow. And plenty of food and water. One day, maybe this will be a bigger concern. But as of right now, it's not. And we need the population growth to sustain our economic growth, for the most part.

    There is also no difference between a citizen and an immigrant, especially DREAMers. These are kids who know no other home but the US, and have been educated here. They deserve the right to stay. As for other immigrants, what's the fundamental differences between my relatives who came over on a boat from Europe fleeing religious persecution and a C. American fleeing gang violence today? Skin color? Native language? Are these differences really that important?

    Immigrant should always be about labor supply. The US has had a demand for cheap labor for generations, and continues to do so today. And as the kids of immigrants grow up here, they climb the economic ladder, and don't replace their parents in their low wage jobs. But instead, get educated and join the middle class, which creates a current perpetual need for new immigrants. It's a story that's been repeating itself for generations.

    Again, down the road, if our immigration needs change, then we can change our policies. But as of today, our guest worker visas are woefully inadequate by the fact that we have 8 million undocumented in our workforce, and allow only 65,000 guest worker Visas currently per year. If we magically deported all undocumented immigrants, and didn't change our Visa limits, it would take 123 years to replace our current immigrant work force with legal immigrants. That's not just unsustainable. It's downright stupid not to change the guest worker visa law.

    And while it's fine to talk about what other countries do to compare, we also need to compare their immigration needs? Do they have the same demand for labor as the US, for example. If no, then it's probably a bad model to follow. Canada, in general, has similar needs, and their immigration policy makes more sense in my opinion.
     
  3. carpeveritas

    carpeveritas GC Legend

    978
    153
    303
    Dec 31, 2016
    Now whose being obtuse? Since when have argued we should let any immigrant into the country? I've argued legal immigration and policies to become American citizens.

    A baby being born anywhere is not a choice of the baby be it on American soil or otherwise. As far as choosing to come here I have no qualms with personal choice. Where I have qualms is when it is done illegally which you seem to forget and want to dance around the issue. When a baby is immersed in American culture it stands to reason that the baby will grow up with American values and culture. Same is said for any other nation be it the UK, China, Russia, France.....

    So you're saying once you are citizen of United States of America the technology isn't American? Have fun explaining that one to an American.

    [QUOTE[BTW, for much of their history Australia had a Whites Only immigration policy. So historically, they have been far more restrictive on their immigration. Of course, I have no idea what this has to do with anything, but none of these points seem to have much of a logical point. I have no idea why the fact that the original Australians from Europe (there were people already in Australia) were criminals means that they shouldn't care about immigrants at all.[/QUOTE]
    Why did you bring up the 1920's then other than your wish is to open the borders to one and all. With few exceptions our border is open for immigrants one and all but do it legally.

    I'll ask again what size population do believe the US should have? Should we strive the population of China or some other country as your claim is the current population will/can not support the American way of life. If you don't have an answer just say so.
     
  4. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

    9,491
    1,007
    1,668
    Dec 9, 2010
    The issue is that you are arguing for a massive system of regulations to restrict legal immigration. For what purpose? Nobody is sure.

    So basically, you think people born here are worth more? Because I am really not sure what you are even trying to say here. I don't care where a person is born in determining their value. You apparently think it is very important.

    Again, who knows what you are going on about here.

    No, it most certainly isn't. You have a massive government bureaucracy and enforcement mechanism that says it isn't. We have a ton of central planning. Nothing about our immigration system is "open."

    I know this must be confusing to someone coming from the perspective of a big believer in central planning and government regulation, but I don't think the government should be dictating what the proper population of the country is. Let the free market do that.
     
  5. carpeveritas

    carpeveritas GC Legend

    978
    153
    303
    Dec 31, 2016
    As for considering the consequences obviously this administration has elected consequences be damned.

    As for controlling the border I would never say it will be under total control. Put policies in place and make adjustments where necessary. Plug the holes as they are discovered.

    What I can say is what we have now is total chaos and from my point of view this administration could care less. If I were to be lenient perhaps this administration misjudged the consequences. What I see happening now though is this administration is willing to live with it and do nothing at all to stem the tide.

    As for asylum laws need to be reviewed and changed as required.
     
  6. gator_lawyer

    gator_lawyer Premium Member

    8,513
    2,653
    1,728
    Oct 30, 2017
    I wish. If they had decided that, they'd be engaging in humane policy, not this cruel and punitive nonsense.

    The entire border is a hole.

    Well, you're unsurprisingly wrong. We don't have "total chaos." They're not "doing nothing at all." In fact, they're violating our asylum laws by sending the overwhelming majority of people who enter the country back home without allowing them to request asylum. To put it very bluntly, you need to look into the policies they're actually using, not just rely on talking points from Republicans and right-wing media.

    I am disgusted by the overly restrictive, inhumane, and Trumpian policies being used by the Biden administration right now. They promised they would be different, and they haven't been. It only makes me even more disgusted to see Republicans act as if he's employing "soft-on-the-border" policies. It is completely the opposite of reality. But we live in a world of "alternative facts."

    Agreed. They need to be made more accommodating to migrants, in addition to a complete revamp of our immigration system.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. danmann65

    danmann65 GC Hall of Fame

    1,192
    359
    403
    May 22, 2015
    Don't Haitians speak French?
     
  8. danmann65

    danmann65 GC Hall of Fame

    1,192
    359
    403
    May 22, 2015
    People walk from Haiti to Texas?
     
  9. carpeveritas

    carpeveritas GC Legend

    978
    153
    303
    Dec 31, 2016
    As it should be versus open borders. This is not a novel concept as I've made clear in my posts.

    Not at all. Where a person is born and raised the culture of that society takes root. I don't see why that is so difficult to comprehend.

    If you cannot follow the train of thought you started I'm all for dropping it.

    [QUOTE[No, it most certainly isn't. You have a massive government bureaucracy and enforcement mechanism that says it isn't. We have a ton of central planning. Nothing about our immigration system is "open."[/QUOTE]
    Tell that to the Haitians who are gathered in thousands at the border.

    You called it central planning and I agreed if that is what it takes I'm fine with it. As for the free market determining what the population should be are you advocating for genocide when that population isn't what the free market needs or wants. Or are you advocating the excess should pick up roots and go elsewhere? In either case good luck with that.

    You refuse to acknowledge what needs to be done to integrate immigrants into American culture. You seem to believe free markets will solve the problem and the world will be as one or am I of base? The reality is free markets cannot solve the issue be it here or anywhere else. Is there some magical syrup a population will take to realize the optimum has been reached?

    My curiosity has now peaked as I wonder what free market is looking to hire these people gathered at our borders and where. Yet given the current situation and limitations places on the free market why would these people look for gainful employment? I certainly haven't heard any free market enterprise state bring them here because I need. I'll grant there are a lot of job openings at the moment due to the COVID response and local/state/federal interventions. If we can't get our current population back to work what makes you think these people will fill our needs?
     
  10. carpeveritas

    carpeveritas GC Legend

    978
    153
    303
    Dec 31, 2016
    Agreed

    Agreed but that does not mean we do nothing about it and live with a gaping hole.

    My understanding is that is not true. People being sent back are single males. Family units and accompanied children are not being sent back.

    I understand your disgust yet the overly restrictive policies of President Trump's administration did not make this an issue for Americans to solve. It is now President Biden's issue to solve and that is a travesty of our own making. Agree or not agree with President Trump's administration policies if they were not her to begin with it's not our issue.

    I don't believe you will get anyone who thinks otherwise. As I mentioned before we could certainly adopt policies such as those in Canada and Australia.
     
  11. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

    9,491
    1,007
    1,668
    Dec 9, 2010
    Yes, we realize you are for government economic central planning. But only when it keeps the immigrants out.

    It is wholly irrelevant to the point of this thread. So I am trying to figure out what your point is that actually is relevant.

    No, I can't follow how the country of technology has something to do with pointing out that your ideal of "American" immigration has never existed in actual, real world America. That is what you responded to. So no clue what that has to do with anything.

    Well, given that we are shipping many of them back to Haiti (even though many of them didn't come there directly), I guess I will have to do that quickly, huh?

    Lol. Wow. This is just beyond ridiculous now. No, I don't want genocide. Yes, people should move when the free market dictates that they move. You know, in the same way that populations have shifted for the entirety of human history except when big government dictates people moving.

    The notion that every immigrant needs to be integrated into American culture in some sort of short order is completely ahistorical. It is amazing how people that want the government to keep out the immigrants seem to have such a loose handle on how America was actually formed (with truly open immigration and a government that didn't lose it when not everybody in the country spoke the same language immediately).

    If they don't get jobs, they will likely leave the country to find jobs. However, it is pretty consistent that immigrants get jobs in the US pretty quickly. We generally need labor. And their lack of location stickiness makes them pretty attractive to low income labor markets, as our low income people often don't have the resources to easily move an established life across the country, especially for a low income job.
     
  12. carpeveritas

    carpeveritas GC Legend

    978
    153
    303
    Dec 31, 2016
    How is having an immigration policy keeping immigrants out? It doesn't what it does do is limit immigration not stop it.

    Please point out where I stated America has never had immigrants. What I stated is once an immigrant becomes an American the technology is American not German, Italian, Swiss or otherwise.

    Not everyone is going back to Haiti. As I understand it single males will be sent back to Haiti which in my opinion and understanding of the migratory process if any of those migrants gained citizenship in the nations they traversed (Brazil, Chile, etc...) that is where they should be sent not Haiti. However the administration has decided to send to Haiti without such consoderation. My understanding at the moment is families and accompanied children will remain under current policy at the moment. I haven't heard about any unaccompanied children but if there are these children will allowed to stay under current policy.

    Cool then that means when optimum is reached free markets should tell people to get lost. Shout it from roof tops there's no room in the inn. Pack up and go elsewhere. This is the LOL you speak of?

    Where did I say this is a short order process? Acclimation and integration takes time not only on the part of our society but effort on the part of the immigrant as well. With the objective above all to become an American citizen. Not difficult to understand.

    Given our social safety nets I find this very hard to believe. Because now I'm going to ask the question at what point do you tell anyone here in the United States all assistance ceases and desists. We will provide free transportation and send you where the free markets are which may be anywhere on the planet. This is not going to happen in our lifetime. Possibly now you understand free market genocide and huge bureaucratic agencies of government economic central planning.
     
  13. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

    9,491
    1,007
    1,668
    Dec 9, 2010
    This is very obtuse. You aren't arguing just for generic "immigration policy." True open borders is an immigration policy. You are advocating for a specific, high regulation, restrictive, big government immigration policy.

    Technology doesn't really have a "country." Regardless, I am still not sure what your point is. You brought up how our advantage is technology over China, and then devolved into this weird tangent. I guess to cover for the connection between immigration and innovation.

    Oh, so we are only shipping off some of the people from our wide open border?

    No, I am laughing at the notion that if you are for open immigration, the solution to overpopulation (i.e., a supply of too much labor) is genocide. And yes, people will react to the lack of opportunity of an oversupplied market by leaving that market.

    Lol, no, literally none of this is a cogent thought. Again, you are really hung up on command-and-control. You think that a free market immigration policy ends up with the government deciding where people go on flights around the world? Or back to killing them? Yeah, you are being absurd here.
     
  14. metalcoater

    metalcoater GC Legend

    864
    65
    248
    May 30, 2007
    Bring Greyhounds and ship them to Canada, and let the big mouth deal with them.
     
  15. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan GC Hall of Fame

    8,599
    623
    458
    Apr 9, 2007
    11 million undocumented in the US, and max passenger number on a greyhound at 55. That's 200,000 busses. You want to pay for that?

    And that would only temporarily fix the issue. Because bussing all current undocumented would not stop new ones from coming. And the 8 million instant job openings would not be filled by citizens. At least not for long.

    It would take a few years, but we would be right back where we are today. But after spending billions to ship millions to Canada, and enduring the short term inflation from labor shortages. Great plan.
     
  16. metalcoater

    metalcoater GC Legend

    864
    65
    248
    May 30, 2007
    We are going to pay for them either way. Seems cheap to send them to big mouth. Short term losses.
     
  17. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan GC Hall of Fame

    8,599
    623
    458
    Apr 9, 2007
    Why not a Gang of 8 style plan? Expand the guest worker program and make the immigrants pay for a Visa. $5 a week, 8 million undocumented in the work force equals over $2 billion a year. Would make the immigrants pay for themselves instead of us paying for them.

    And we wouldn't have to endure the major labor shortages and inflation that would cause.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. metalcoater

    metalcoater GC Legend

    864
    65
    248
    May 30, 2007
    No let Canada do that.
     
  19. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan GC Hall of Fame

    8,599
    623
    458
    Apr 9, 2007
    Why shouldn't we benefit from the increased Visa tax receipts and the needed cheap labor?
     
  20. Swamplizard

    Swamplizard VIP Member

    3,208
    422
    228
    Apr 3, 2007
    Florida
    Kind of, they speak Creole or Patois which is based on the French Language but can use a lot of slang I have spent some time down there