Discussion in 'Nuttin' but Net' started by akaGatorhoops, Dec 7, 2019.
regardless, we waited 8 months for this detritus
Ehh, but you're excusing failure by pointing out that Donovan failed too. With Donovan there was always light at the end of the tunnel.
He's not someone I'd consider anywhere near a 5 star prospect. The kid is a poor man's Tyler Herro.
No. I’m not.
If you’ve read my recent posts, I’ve hardly parsed words. Have you read the thread title and opening post?
Spoiler alert: the word “indefensible” is used.
"Donovan is my favorite coach in the history of sports... and the best we have ever seen or will see at UF. Nice preface to blasting him below.
But he wasn't always able to do as described above, and wasn't immune to getting crushed on these boards, nor impervious to calls for his job. Most likely UK trolls since they were obsessed at the time with taking him away from us. Billy had 5 years preceding the titles during which we failed to get out of the first weekend. . . . and during that time, the proverbial "noise in the system" grew quite loud. It's nothing like this.
And there was a three-year span following the titles during which we failed to make the tourney twice and bowed out in the opening round once. And all of those rosters, at least on paper, appeared quite talented. So because we're currently talented on paper right now, and aren't doing well, ahhh I see a comparison.
Billy had 19 years at Florida, and it could be argued that he couldn't squeeze the expected results out of his rosters nearly half the time. . . . This is false narrative. the 8 season I mentioned above, and his final year (9 total).
Coaching is a tough gig, and it must be brutal having your livelihood tied to the performance of kids, and the frustrations of the fan base." That's why they pay him well to do his job.
1) blasting? Nope- just a statement about the reality of coaching. It is impossible to always maximize a kid’s or team’s talents. In fact, it is probably pretty rare. Billy did it much more frequently than most.
2) ummm... no. If you don’t think billy was getting blasted by Gators fans and Gators posters, I don’t know what to tell ya- other than ‘you are wrong’. An anecdote I relayed here is that my original screen name was “gatorhoops2000”. I was banned under this name for too vigorously defending Donovan against the above mentioned attacks. I came back as the no-so-subtle “aka”.
3) Sure- you can find a comparison by looking for one, but that wasn’t the intent of my comment.
In order to demonstrate that billy didn’t ALWAYS maximize talent, I’d have to establish what the talent level was, no?
Look- you can spin my post however you wish- but you are commenting on a thread I originated that reads “hideous”, “indefensible” and lays blame at the feet of the coaches.
When I have defended White, I haven’t done so covertly. And I wouldn’t start now. White, imo, has had a very poor start to this season. His team has been emotionally flat, fundamentally unprepared and generally very underwhelming.
4) it’s a false narrative because you say it is? Ok.
5) Yup- that is why coaches are paid big money- and I have used those exact words in justifying why they are NOT above criticism.
I watched the game knowing the outcome.
While I realize it's a simplistic take, IMO the game changes if we do 2 simple things.
1) MAKE A FREE THROW. We were 2 of 8 on FTs in the 2nd half, with one miss being the front end. If we go 7 of 9 instead, that's 5 extra points in the first half.
2) Stop letting Blackshear shoot 3s. He was 0 for 4 in the first half. If we simply average 1 point per possession on those wasted trips, that's 4 more points.
So doing these very simple things gets us 9 more points in the first half. Now we are tied at half, instead of down by 9.
Our confidence is up, our demeanor has changed. Perhaps its a different game. It's certainly a closer game.
I know free throws are boring. They will never make the ESPN highlight reel.
It's obvious our guys don't value them. But making FTs are just concentration and practice. And they add up.
We have other problems, and I see that. I don't disagree. But if we can do these 2 very simple things, so many other things will fall into place.
I know this is a simple solution. But sometimes simple solutions work.
edit: shortened and clarified.
I think we should run the Pleasantville offense.
It is not fair to compare any current or future Florida basketball coach to BD. They will lose the comparison.
Lol. Hopefully when they play in black and white.
1. It may not have been "blasting" but it sure wasn't the truth to say "he couldn't squeeze the expected results out of his rosters nearly half the time. . "
2. I can assure you that those fans aren't very knowledgeable, and you're pointing out a minority of fans compared to the overwhelming majority who want to see dramatic changes made such as a new offense or new assistants or both. A lot want White gone but that makes no sense now realistically since his contract runs through 2024-25.
3. Donovan's teams were much, MUCH more talented, and he developed them. All White seems to do lately is take the confidence away from his players.
4. Yes, saying "well Donovan struggled here, so...." is false narrative. Mike White is and will never be in the same league as Donovan.
5. We had this same argument last season and you said if he doesn't perform this season with what he has, he's probably not the right guy for the job. Now it's "well everyone fails, so let's give him time!" Yes it's premature to judge this year based on 9 games but all the momentum and confidence is gone. Teams don't fear playing us, and our players look like they're having a miserable time out there much like the looks KeVaughn Allen or Keith Stone had every game.
You are assigning positions to me.
Let me try this again:
1) I think it is the truth. Those teams I mentioned . . . 9 of 'em . . . did not meet expectations. I believe that is factual. If you disagree, please tell me which team and why. Perhaps it is the math you dispute, but to me . .. 9 is "nearly half" of 19.
2) Again, my post was NOT about White. It was a comment made about Donovan. I am not sure of your age, or if you were around the forums circa 2000-2004, but there was a rather loud and seemingly significant portion of the vocal fan base that expressed real frustration with Donovan. I would agree those fan were not very knowledgeable.
3) Again, I was not making a comparison. But since you are doing so . . . wouldn't your claim of Donovan's teams being "much, much more talented" give further credence to those early exists and tourney misses NOT meeting expectations? I guess I am not sure how you reconcile #1 with #3.
4) Again, you are calling my statement a false narrative, but not explaining why. And I didn't say that which you quoted me as saying. I didn't state "Donovan struggled here so. . . ". My post was originally a response to someone claiming Donovan ALWAYS squeezed everything out of his talent. The truth is, he wasn't always able to do so. And that is NOT an indictment on him --- it is a reality of coaching. As I have said, Donovan was able to maximize his talent far, far more than most coaches. Finally, I don't like making blanket statement - but I would probably agree that White will never reach Donovan level. I think Billy is one of the greatest in the history of the sport, so very few will ever meet such benchmark - or come close.
5) Again, you are assigning comments to me that I did not make. Quotation marks should be used when quoting someone - not when misrepresenting their position. I did NOT say, "well everyone fails so let's give him time".
I think any coach deserves time to prove what he/she is capable of achieving. How much time? That depends on a lot of factors, and the answer will differ from one person to the next . . . and from one scenario to another.
I still DO think that if White does not succeed with this roster, he is likely not going to be the right guy moving forward. Where did I say differently?
I think this is a critical year for White, as failure with this group will crush fan support and recruiting momentum . . . and would give some real validity to the question, 'if he can't succeed here with this roster, how can he?". That said, I can't see a scenario in which White doesn't have a longer leash than past this year. I think he has earned such, but yes --- I stand by my prior comment that failure this season would be a very bad indicator.
Still, as disappointed as I am with the early going - I am not evaluating the season after 9 games. And though I am increasingly in the minority, I am still confident this will be a very good team when it counts most . . . and this will be a successful season, and coach.
Hopefully this clarifies my positions.
9 seasons where Donovan didn't get the most of of his talent lol? I'd be curious to hear what seasons you're referring to. 2003-05 were underwhelming given the talent, otherwise I have no idea what you're talking about. The shelf was empty after the 04s left, because no top recruit wanted to be a backup. No one expected us to be good those seasons. After the 2 rebuilding years, all he did was take us to 3 straight elite 8s and a final 4.
Recruiting: Compare Donovan's first three full years recruiting with White's: Kenyan Weaks, Brent Wright, Teddy Dupay, Mike Miller, Udonis Haslem, Donnell Harvey, Brett Nelson, Matt Bonner, Justin Hamilton vs Gorjok Gak, Eric Hester, Dontay Bassett, Chase Johnson, Isaiah Stokes, Mike Okauru, DeAundrae Ballard, Andrew Nembhard, Keyontae Johnson, Noah Locke. Just allow that to sink in. The success White has had was due to Donovan's players, just as the failure Donovan had was due to Lon Kruger's players. Donovan barely lost out on some dynamite talent too. I really can't think of anyone who White lost so far who would've been a huge difference maker aside from Dotson.
Where are we having this disconnect????? Where ..... WHERE ....did I make any suggestion Regarding White recruiting better or equal to Donovan??? Why do you feel compelled to convince me Donovan recruited better???? Where did I suggest otherwise????????????????????
As to the 9 seasons, I pinpointed which. There were 5 years prior to the titles that we bowed out early; 3 years after the titles that we either missed the tourney or lost on the opening round and there is the losing season of Billy’s final year.
Which one of those 9 do you think met expectations?
You didn't. Not everything I post is part of the argument, but it needs to be noted whenever the "Donovan had struggles too here" conversation gets brought up.
You're being purposely vague on the expectations vs results comparison. Did you really expect Donovan's last team to be winners led by sophomore Kasey Hill? Did anyone think the years after the 04s left were going to be title contenders? That's pretty ridiculous.
"5 years prior to the titles".... he says after we finished either 1st or 2nd in the SEC in all 5 seasons.
Ok... but for the fact that the class that entered as the 04s left was top ranked by rivals.
And that team was ranked in the AP Top 25 very early in the season.
I’ve pinpointed the exact years I do not think the teams met expectations.
I’ll happily give you a season by season breakdown when I have a moment.... but a few examples:
The 2007 class was rated #1 in the country by rivals. The team was ranked top 25 in an early AP poll. That team was not expected to miss the tourney.
Florida entered 2008-2009 season with a consensus top 10 in coming class. . . rated #2 by ESPN. The team was preseason ranked top 25 in both polls. That team was not expected to miss the tourney.
The 2009-2010 team was ranked #10 in an early AP poll. I don’t think a tenth seed and opening round loss to Butler met expectations.
Not exactly high expectations.
It’s ok to be wrong.
If you are going to insist that missing the tourney those two years and bowing out in the opening round the third season- met expectations .... you are either delusional or lack the ability to admit being wrong.