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The World needs to hold China accountable

Discussion in 'GatorNana's Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by defensewinschampionships, Apr 1, 2020.

  1. Crusher

    Crusher GC Hall of Fame

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    I tend to agree with this and based on everything that has been speculated about how easily this thing spreads, I don't think the Chinese or anyone else could have prevented it from getting out.

    However, China should be held responsible for their active cover-up of the severity and scope of the disease. Their disinformation campaign, particularly when they stopped "reporting" new cases was hurtful to other nations in their preparation for what I believe was the inevitability of its appearance throughout the world.
     
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  2. tilly

    tilly Superhero Mod. Fast witted. Bulletproof posts. Moderator VIP Member

    I think I heard last night that we already have multiple existing committees doing this. This is just grandstanding by Pelosi. She had better be careful. People support a POTUS during times like this. Turning this political just for the sake of politics...which this could appear to the voters...may be a bad strategy.
     
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  3. g8trjax

    g8trjax GC Hall of Fame

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    Well FWIW, this guy puts forth a plausible accounting of the origins of this mess. Can't read Chinese, so have to take his word on some of it.

     
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  4. G8trGr8t

    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    what do you think of this? Were you aware that the IC had a special group allocated to tracking medical related intelligence? Seems like the IC was all over it and they were basically ignored even by the military as they were approving ship leave that ended up compromising the Roosevelt

    Intelligence report warned of coronavirus crisis as early as November: Sources

    "It would be a significant alarm that would have been set off by this," former Deputy Assistant Defense Secretary Mick Mulroy, now an ABC News contributor, said of the NCMI report. "And it would have been something that would be followed up by literally every intelligence-collection agency."

    Mulroy, who previously served as a senior official at the CIA, said NCMI does serious work that senior government leaders do not ignore.

    Medical intelligence takes into account all source information — imagery intelligence, human intelligence, signals intelligence," Mulroy said. "Then there’s analysis by people who know those specific areas. So for something like this to have come out, it has been reviewed by experts in the field. They’re taking together what those pieces of information mean and then looking at the potential for an international health crisis."

    NCMI is a component of the Pentagon's Defense Intelligence Agency. Together, the agencies’ core responsibilities are to ensure U.S. military forces have the information they need to carry out their missions — both offensively and defensively. It is a critical priority for the Pentagon to keep American service members healthy on deployments.
     
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  5. Gatorrick22

    Gatorrick22 GC Hall of Fame

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    Every country on Earth that owes China money should call that debt paid in full... and that goes for the U.S.A. too.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2020
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  6. reboundgtr

    reboundgtr Premium Member

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    Another good thread shot in the butt...

     
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  7. reboundgtr

    reboundgtr Premium Member

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    US media outlets and critical thinking do not belong together.
     
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  8. dingyibvs

    dingyibvs Premium Member

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    Money is just paper. It's actually not even paper anymore, just 0's and 1's in a computer. We can just create 0's and 1's to pay off that debt in a nanosecond. The effect will be the same as cancelling the debt to China--rising borrowing costs, inflation, financial disaster. Don't focus on the paper (or the 0's and 1's), it's the implicit guarantee behind those otherwise worthless objects that gives money its power. Challenge that guarantee, as many nations have tried, and disaster will surely follow.

    Realistically, China is the only major economy looking like it's getting back to normal. With the financial carnage that is accompanying this virus, everyone will be in a WORSE position to hold them accountable for anything after all this calms down. Every government will then be under tremendous pressure to resurrect the economy, and enough of them will want China's help to do so as they will, in the immediate future at least, be the only one able and willing to provide that help.
     
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  9. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    China did supply masks and other supplies to other nations. They bought up our masks when the virus first broke out (after they lied about how serious it was), and then eventually they sent their (defective) masks when we needed them. Then they claimed that westerners should try reading the instructions to add insult to injury.
     
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  10. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Had China been more forthcoming about the virus and how serious it was (and they knew it was serious based on how they were buying up global medical supplies as they covered up the details of the virus), we might be doing the last cleanup of the virus right now, instead of in the middle of the outbreak.
     
  11. G8trGr8t

    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    Why should we be dependent upon our enemies to supply us intel? Our IC knew it was serious in November and told the Pentagon and the WH as much. We spend billions on intel capability and then try and blame others for not giving us intel while ignoring our own IC. Can you see the absurdity in that?
     
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  12. rivergator

    rivergator Too Hot Mod Moderator

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    It's China! It's WHO! I mean, it has to be someone else's fault!
    Favorite line: "This is a president who believes in accountability."

    Pence vows US will ask WHO 'tough questions' over how 'they could have been so wrong' about coronavirus
     
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  13. Gatorrick22

    Gatorrick22 GC Hall of Fame

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    Only the "globalists" think this way... I understand your underlying thought with regard to money being just paper, but that debt relief (debt forgiveness) means that their workers get less for their toil than they otherwise would if we do nothing. It also sends a message that they cannot get away with their recklessness as a nation. The Chinese are directly responsible for at least 4 world wide viruses counting COVID-19.

    Enough is enough. China MUST PAY.
     
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  14. OaktownGator

    OaktownGator Guardian of the GC Galaxy Moderator VIP Member

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    I agree that China should pay. UN should convene and determine sanctions against them... and every other country whose leadership intentionally lied about this pandemic, and delayed/prevented effective testing and prophylactic measures in addition to providing for needed medical supplies. That would of course include our country. Not at the same level as the Chinese perhaps, but we'd almost certainly be number two in line for stiff sanctions on a global list.

    Kudos to the leadership of countries like South Korea who took this seriously. They should be commended just as countries like China and the USA should be sanctioned.

    Of course, because the US and China have so much global power, nothing will happen wrt either country.
     
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  15. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    We had no reason to believe that China would lie. And while China is a "potential" enemy, we are also their biggest customer in terms of economic trade. It's not normal in business to kill off your customers.

    The billions we spend on intel capability does not give us any information on viruses in other countries. Especially when people in those other countries don't have a complete picture of what kind of virus they are dealing with. It would have been nice to intercept a phone call or capture an e-mail from within China about how serious they thought it was, but again, we may just not have that capability. We may spend more than China on our intelligence activities, but I promise you they have more people working on it. They have 2 million people who just monitor internet usage of their own citizens.

    If Trump did not listen to his own intelligence sources, then he should be held accountable, of course. I have no doubt that Trump did not handle this perfectly. We had a lot of politicians who have handled it badly, and some who are still handling it badly. A virus is a hard thing for some people to wrap their head around as far as it being a serious threat. Many people immediately wanted to compare it to the annual flu that kills a certain number of people each year, and want to wait until this virus exceeds that many deaths before taking it seriously. It's the wrong way to think about it, but it is human nature to think that way. You have to have some system of quantifying how bad a threat is before you decide how you will react to it. I thought about coronavirus that way when it was first mentioned in early January. Once I realized by the end of January how insanely contagious it was, I began to think differently about it, and take it more seriously.

    Another thing to consider: we may not have had the resources to take this coronavirus as seriously as we should have. If we have a hypothetical 2,000 people per day flying into the U.S. from China, and you need to keep them quarantined for almost a month before you test them and declare them free of the virus, then you need 60,000 hotel rooms, preferably near military bases (and international airports) so you could keep them in quarantine effectively. That just may not have been possible.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2020
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  16. G8trGr8t

    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    Did you read the article? Here it is again for quick reference. The IC has a specific department to monitor medical issues and provide the gubmnt intel on risk related to things just like this. They did their job and the people in charge ignored their own intel. Trump said Xi told him it wasn't that bad and that is what he wanted to hear so he ignored his own intel in favor of Xi's story.

    Intelligence report warned of coronavirus crisis as early as November: Sources

    As far back as late November, U.S. intelligence officials were warning that a contagion was sweeping through China’s Wuhan region, changing the patterns of life and business and posing a threat to the population, according to four sources briefed on the secret reporting.

    Concerns about what is now known to be the novel coronavirus pandemic were detailed in a November intelligence report by the military's National Center for Medical Intelligence (NCMI), according to two officials familiar with the document’s contents.

    The report was the result of analysis of wire and computer intercepts, coupled with satellite images. It raised alarms because an out-of-control disease would pose a serious threat to U.S. forces in Asia — forces that depend on the NCMI’s work. And it paints a picture of an American government that could have ramped up mitigation and containment efforts far earlier to prepare for a crisis poised to come home.

    "Analysts concluded it could be a cataclysmic event," one of the sources said of the NCMI’s report. "It was then briefed multiple times to" the Defense Intelligence Agency, the Pentagon’s Joint Staff and the White House.


    What reason do we have to believe anything the Chinese gubmnt says? They routinely lie about anything and everything that might cast them in a bad light.
     
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  17. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    That's all well and good, but we may not know if Trump got conflicting info from the CDC or someone else. CDC scientists seem more prone to wait and see if something is absolutely proven to be what we think it is, whether it is a coronavirus cure, or possibly whether the coronavirus was a serious threat. It may have been the CDC that believed China's explanations, and relayed that interpretation to Trump. (The CDC has been wrong several times on the details of this virus, including whether people should wear masks or not.) The World Health Organization seems to be the more likely culprit according to this article:

    Trump is right about one thing: The World Health Organization deserves some blame for the coronavirus pandemic

    The WHO may have given Trump enough reason to doubt the severity forecasts as they parroted China's line about the virus being mild and inconsequential.

    Part of the rationale for the responses that were given might have been a fear of causing panic in the general population, resulting in Americans hoarding medical PPE that might be needed by medical staff but in short supply. I'm not saying that it is impossible for Trump to have completely ignored his intelligence community, it's just not that likely that he did. It seems more likely that he got some conflicting information, and chose the wrong person to listen to. (Hopefully it was not his son-in-law.)

    A problem of this magnitude is rarely as simple as it seems from the outside. There are still things we don't know about the overall decision-making process and who and what was involved. I would prefer not to jump to conclusions until I know more about the facts.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2020
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  18. tigator2019

    tigator2019 All American

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    In my head--- UF
    Pay how?
     
  19. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    There are sanctions that could be applied to China, or moved made to weaken China. Any move that could be made would be much stronger if the U.S. and Europe (China's two biggest customers) do it together. Add in Japan and South Korea, and it is that much more powerful. So far, however, Trump has been unable to engage Europe (or any other country) on almost anything--everything he does is unilateral.

    One thing that could be done is to raise tariffs on goods from China. If the large global players don't buy from China for any length of time, their economy collapses to a fraction of its size. Countries could also pull their manufacturing back from China (which Japan is attempting to do).

    Another thing would be to recognize Taiwan as an independent nation. China takes its territorial claims very seriously, whether they are bogus or not.

    Most likely, none of these things will happen. But the rest of the world could get China to make some major concessions on things like wet markets if they threatened to do any of these things.
     
  20. G8trGr8t

    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    He chooses to hear what he wants to hear and dismiss anything that conflicts with that. that is a big part of the problem. When you fire and ridicule everybody that tells you what you don't want to hear what kind of info do you expect he is going to get. He has fostered a atmosphere of fear where nobody is willing to tell him the truth anymore out of fear of losing their job. That is a big f'ing problem. Ask yourself why nobody ever remains in his employ long. Does that tell you anything about the man?
     
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