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The Supreme Court’s Far-Ranging Ruling on School Choice

Discussion in 'GatorNana's Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by gator10010, Jul 1, 2020.

  1. tilly

    tilly Superhero Mod. Fast witted. Bulletproof posts. Moderator VIP Member

    You missed my point. Do you think that potential misuse is a good reason to eliminate food stamps? I don't.
    So why would potential misuse be a good reason to deny potential educational opportunities?
     
  2. tilly

    tilly Superhero Mod. Fast witted. Bulletproof posts. Moderator VIP Member

    Should we eliminate food stamps?
    Should private businesses be allowed to benefit from food stamps?

    My answers are No to the first and Yes to the second.
     
  3. swampbabe

    swampbabe GC Hall of Fame

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    Please let me know which standards that you feel are inappropriate and constitute “indoctrination.” I have included all social studies standards K-12.

    http://www.fldoe.org/core/fileparse.php/5444/urlt/0074986-financial.pdf
     
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  4. 92gator

    92gator GC Hall of Fame

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  5. swampbabe

    swampbabe GC Hall of Fame

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    Can’t answer?
     
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  6. 92gator

    92gator GC Hall of Fame

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    I just did. Id ask if you missed it, but you replied to that same post.

    You just dont like my answer.
     
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  7. swampbabe

    swampbabe GC Hall of Fame

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    I asked you specifically what standards constituted indoctrination. You can’t/won’t answer it. I suggest that you actually read the standards and get back to me. I have returned your test paper back to you and asked you to do a better job. I know you can do it.
     
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  8. gatordavisl

    gatordavisl VIP Member

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    The problem is clearly with a voucher system because it seeks to place public funds in the private sector. It's an entitlement system for SOME children to attend private schools at taxpayers' expense. I like Peter Greene's take on this.
    CURMUDGUCATION: Religious Voucher Schools
     
  9. gatordavisl

    gatordavisl VIP Member

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    Are you willing to pay for poor people to have vouchers? Do you want your taxes raised to pay private school tuition for all children? If not, you are proposing that the public school system be marginalized, because that's what happens with vouchers.

    You lose me on the rest of your post. Private schools are not in high income areas because of a lack of vouchers. That is complete nonsense. Please look around the U.S. and the world to see how effective vouchers have been.

    How the Use of School Vouchers Has Destroyed Chile's Public Education System -- THE Journal
    Lessons from Chile’s Universal Voucher System Can Inform U.S. Education Policy
    Free market systems do not work in education.
    Florida leads nation in school vouchers, and there are more to come
    School choice and vouchers compromise civil rights.
    The Danger Private School Voucher Programs Pose to Civil Rights - Center for American Progress

    On the track record in America
    School Vouchers: The Emerging Track Record

    Diane Ravitch is extremely well-informed on public education policy.
    The Education Reform Movement Has Failed America
     
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  10. phatGator

    phatGator GC Hall of Fame

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    I lived in Belgium for two years. All schools are funded by the government. If a religious group has enough people, the Government will fund their schools. No one freaks out about it. The vast majority of kids go to Roman Catholic schools because they are by far the best education.
     
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  11. tilly

    tilly Superhero Mod. Fast witted. Bulletproof posts. Moderator VIP Member

    I know we differ on these things. I respect your opinion as an educator. As you know, I was raised by teachers and married an educator. They support vouchers. We can play article ping pong all day. I understand that. Both sides make compelling points a d have links we can cite. I feel the link to educational rankings in nations that use vouchers tell is it can work.

    Agree to disagree.
    ...now let's arm us some teachers. ;)
     
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  12. Gatorcola

    Gatorcola GC Legend

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    I'm not sure if this is been mentioned in the thread yet, but how is this different from college students getting Federal loans and Pell grants and being able to go to Christian colleges and use that money?
     
  13. gatordavisl

    gatordavisl VIP Member

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    I think it's different on a number of levels. For one, public school preK-12 budgets are determined at the state level. The federal government contributes to special programs, such as Title I and awards grants for teacher development, etc. but the bulk of the school finances come from state dollars. Federal loans and Pell grants are needs-based. While I imagine a number of the school voucher programs claim to be needs-based, I have little trust in many such systems' fairness.

    Conservatives have sought to privatize education for a long time. It comes under the guise of "school reform," and "school choice." These initiatives all sound good until you do some research on the history, processes, who the key players are and kinds of shell games they play. It's unfortunate that a portion of our society gets bamboozled by fake initiatives and biased studies touting the benefits of privatization/vouchers/charter schools, etc. Some conservatives (@tilly) have relatives in the field of education who apparently support these flawed practices, but I wonder how much time they are able to devote to research. Teachers tend to know a whole lot about the specific turf on which they operate, but they are afforded very little opportunity to branch out, conduct research, examine policy, etc.

    When I taught public school (1996-05/2011-12) I had little clue about state budgets, vouchers, etc. and 1998 was when Jeb Bush started the biggest voucher initiative in the U.S. It was but a whisper to me and my colleagues (the boots on the ground), partially because the majority of my work week was dedicated to teaching and partially because I was newish to the profession and earning my wings. Now that I'm in higher education, I have a much better-informed perspective. I have opportunities to more carefully examine policies.
     
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  14. phatGator

    phatGator GC Hall of Fame

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    I'm surprised at the number of people in this thread who don't seem to mind discrimination against certain children, as long as those children are predominantly white and probably mostly well off.
     
  15. tilly

    tilly Superhero Mod. Fast witted. Bulletproof posts. Moderator VIP Member

    By the way @gatordavisl , I would support an increase in taxes to support a plan that would give inner city kids an escape from bad schools.
    That is actually not a conservative perspective at all. It is a moderate one.

    I respect your opinion. It is one of many. Many others in your field see differently. Many other countries have been able to pull it off with success.

    But you certainly have earned your right to your informed opinion.
     
  16. OaktownGator

    OaktownGator Guardian of the GC Galaxy Moderator VIP Member

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    I share your value of education for our children. But curriculum issues aren't specific to public education - they can be problematic in private or public, vary by state and locality, as well as resources (teachers and books and materials) appropriate to the curriculum.

    And if education is that important to America's children as a whole, we can't fix that by damaging the system that is responsible for educating the overwhelming majority of America's children.

    Public schools are mandated to take all children. Private schools cherry pick students and families out of public schools, weakening the strength of the schools they pull from. A school is no better than the students and families that support it.

    Families should of course be free to put their children in the schools that best serve them if they can afford it, but using taxpayer funds to move strong students and families out of public education is very damaging to the system that is responsible for educating the majority of American children.

    It's counter productive to the mission we both agree is so important.

    We've had charter schools in operation for plenty of time to study the most effective practices and roll them into public education. And this will almost certainly have to involve agreement from teachers' unions to remove poor performing teachers rather than protect them. Or the unions will have to go. But that's not the only issue by far. Teacher pay, class sizes, class management skills/support, parental involvement, some sort of diversion for really troubled kids (has to be managed free of bias which is difficult) are all important factors off the top of my head.
     
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  17. RealGatorFan

    RealGatorFan Premium Member

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    Again, you folks keep bringing up this crap when the amendment specifically states, "shall make no laws for or against". If a state indirectly funds multiple private schools, they can't legally prohibit religious schools from getting those funds because that violates the other half of the amendment the "Separation of Church and State" people keep ignoring.

    As for Islamic private schools getting funding, they already do, including in Florida:

    Florida private schools get nearly $1 billion in state scholarships with little oversight, Sentinel finds

     
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  18. Gatorcola

    Gatorcola GC Legend

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    Actually, many states, including Florida have scholarship programs that can be used for attending state or private schools. This includes religious schools.
     
  19. gatordavisl

    gatordavisl VIP Member

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    I know. Not sure why you quoted my post. Did I suggest otherwise? Not trying to be combative, just don't understand your point.
     
  20. WC53

    WC53 All American

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    It is about religious schools and keeping wealthy schools, wealthy and what is the other word...

    Not to mention big money because it is a continuous revenue stream. Much like going to digital textbooks costs more money as subscriptions must be renewed.