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Possession with knees down!

Discussion in 'RayGator's Swamp Gas' started by wci347, Aug 27, 2019.

  1. antny

    antny GC Hall of Fame

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    Yeah this is my feeling. Had he gotten up and even ran even while continuing to bobble the ball while running and the refs reviewed it they would have called him down.
     
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  2. wci347

    wci347 GC Hall of Fame

    If he didn't have possession in that instant why would he have tried to get up with it? Once a guy smothers the ball while lying on the turf, the ball is dead. It wasn't his inability to control the ball in that position that caused the ball to come loose. It was his inability to control the ball while trying to get up to run with it. The fact that the two actions happened simultaneously or immediately in sequence is irrelevant. If he had attempted to run with the ball that was loose when part of his foot was out of bounds, and fumbled it away, the ball would be dead at the spot where he went out of bounds.
     
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  3. grant1

    grant1 GC Hall of Fame

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    I was surprised the booth didn't review it, but I believe read that CDM "did think about it".
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
  4. gatortenor37

    gatortenor37 GC Legend

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    No, he said he did have that cross his mind, but he decided it was too much of a bang bang play and he didn't think it was worth the challenge if he needed it later in the game. The way the game was going then, I don't blame him.
     
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  5. SJB612

    SJB612 GC Hall of Fame

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    Good point. Bad toss by Franks with a defender closing in on David but DavisDavis d focus to catch the ball. Not up to game speed yet. I also felt as bad as Franks pass was to Swain, he got both hands on it and shouldn't have let it go through for the INT. They will get it cleaned up... I hope.
     
  6. ugahairydawgs

    ugahairydawgs All American

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    Laying on the ball does not constitute possession. If just covering it were enough the first guy on a pile after a fumble would come out with it 100% of the time.

    The player has to have control of the ball, which Davis never did. He came close and if he had tried to just smother it he probably would have been fine. But he tried to grab it and get up and in that never fully secured it, so by the time McCloud got to him all he had to do was just bump him and the ball goes rolling out again.

     
  7. ugahairydawgs

    ugahairydawgs All American

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    In his defense, challenged plays hardly ever get overturned.
     
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  8. grant1

    grant1 GC Hall of Fame

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    You are correct, I misread the quote and fixed my comment.
     
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  9. BJ1888

    BJ1888 GC Hall of Fame

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    That picture doesn't show enough control to count as a catch, so he doesn't have possession.
     
  10. Gatorrick22

    Gatorrick22 GC Hall of Fame

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    If your foot touches the boundary line at game speed, do they not overturn bad calls?
     
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  11. wci347

    wci347 GC Hall of Fame

    He wasn’t lying on the ball!

    Secondly the officials can’t tell what is going on I. The pile. This was not a pile situation!

    I am sure that in those pile up plays possession can change several times before the refs clear the pile. So someone who might have had initial possession loses it in the pile to someone who is either stronger or in a better position leverage wise to take the ball.

    But this situation was different not only was Davis alone with the ball but he unmistakingly makes an effort to get up with the ball.

    Here is an example. If a punt returner goes after a punt and is on one knee when his hand touches the ball, he hasn’t actually “possessed” it, but the ball would be down at the spot where his hand contacted the ball. Even if he muffed it and reached out for it on one knee the ball would be dead upon his touching it. F58 ARICLE 3(b)

    In such situations “control” (trying to get up after you are down to run with the ball) is tantamount to possession.


    The only time a person can be down and touch the ball and the ball not be dead according to the rules is when there is a place kick attempted. Under those circumstances, the defensive players can get the ball and recover a fumble or the offense can pick it up despite the holder’s knee having been on the ground, and either run with the ball or throw the ball.

    Davis was down. This was not a pile where there was doubt as to who actually got possession of the ball. He tries to get off of his knees with the ball and then is instantly hit by a degenerate Miami player- #53 who tried to tackle Davis even though he was already down.

    It was a horrible call and should have been challenged.
     
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  12. wci347

    wci347 GC Hall of Fame

    Excellent point!
     
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  13. jakescout

    jakescout Freshman

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  14. wci347

    wci347 GC Hall of Fame

    The fact that he is attempting to get up to run with ball is evidence of possession. If no part of his body were down and he attempted to do that, the ball would still be live. But because his body was down, it became a dead ball.

    Are you telling us that lying on the ground he would have to cradle the ball to establish possession? What rule are you citing?

    A football player does not have cradle the ball to score a touchdown! All he has to do is extend the ball across the end zone line. Many times this is done with one hand extended over line with the ball ultimately touching the turf. Why would that not be a fumble also?
     
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  15. gatortenor37

    gatortenor37 GC Legend

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    I'm sure you are right, but the way the game was going, our defense was playing good. Dan figured he would get it back and not waste a time out/ lose a challenge. It is easy to see slowing down the film that he was alone, but bang bang it was pretty close. I hate putting those decisions in other peoples hands. Just let our D do its job and get it back.
     
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  16. tarponbro

    tarponbro GC Legend

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    Franks didn't make a bad pitch on that play. The pitch was in front of Davis and a slight bit high, that's all. Davis should've caught that one without any problems.
     
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  17. thale410

    thale410 GC Hall of Fame

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    Sure. But that's a replay issue. Zeebs on the field aren't giving the benefit of the doubt on a fumble to the guy who never has the handle in real time.

    ESPN guru dude mentioned the game speed. No idea how much that would have mattered to the replay official (but apparently enough to not buzz the refs on the field), nor did CDM call a TO to press the issue.

    If Malik lays on the ball instead of playing by NFL rules there is no issue. Better control what you can control as a player, because evidence indicates UF isn't getting extra benefit of the doubt from any officiating crew.
     
  18. thale410

    thale410 GC Hall of Fame

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    Can someone build a time machine so we can get a challenge from Dan before wci's has an aneurysm? Thanks.
     
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  19. nawlinsgator

    nawlinsgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Him and Marco made some mistakes Saturday. Long lay off. But got to learn valuable lessons and we are still 1-0. This is the best of both worlds, really. We didn't need this team going into the SEC schedule overconfident, like last year.
     
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  20. BJ1888

    BJ1888 GC Hall of Fame

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    The rule that possession requires control isn't new.
    Rule 2, Section 4, Article 1.a. Player Possession. The ball is in player possession when a player has the ball firmly in his grasp by holding or controlling it with hand(s) or arm(s)...​