Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by dadx4, Oct 14, 2021.
That was Harrell to Doncic as I have now told you about three different times.
Thank you for clarifying. So someone that doesn’t have authority over the other. Don’t you think that context is different?
So White players can use racially derogatory language against Black players in the NFL or NBA?
Doncic can call Kyrie Irving a "b**** a** Black guy?"
I mean...that was already up for debate
I didn’t say that. What I said is that when it is someone who exercised authority over the other and directly implicates their livelihood, then it impacts the ability of the person with authority to do their job.
Do you have any evidence that Jon Gruden has let racial prejudices (that really may or may not exist) impact any of his coaching decisions at any point in his career?
That’s the whole point. A coach makes an enormous number of decisions that are not apparent that impact players’ livelihoods. When his own behavior gives players reason to believe that his decisions are based on something other than objectivity in the best interests of the team, they lose faith in his decisions and make it impossible for him to accomplish the objectives of his job.
And more importantly, it leads ownership to determine that the benefit of what he brings to the job is now outweighed by the cost of distraction to his players who now have a basis to believe exactly what I said.
That’s why it becomes a huge distraction. Every future decision will be second guessed by players. And this isn’t college, these are professional athletes who have conditions of employment.
What Gruden did opened a Pandora’s box of problems. And that Pandora’s box interferes with the ability of his club to function properly, which is reason enough for management to suggest it is some for him to move on. At the end of the day, it’s bad for business because his behavior impacts the belief in objectivity of the employees of the club.
This is completely on Gruden. He has been reprehensible for years. And make no mistake.. the NFL and ESPN knew it but disnt care as long as it wasn’t from and center. This was not a secret. Someone received those emails he sent.
As for the boys layers using derogatory terms to one another. That needs to end. If it ends a coaches career it should end a players. Players should NOT be allowed to use those terms to others. Never. End of discussion. But just because that happens when it shouldn’t does not give an excuse or leeway to the Gruden situation.
mans finally none of this is Political Correctness. It’s basic human decency.
Comments were obviously bad.
Im just saying he’s far from the only one. He’s just this week’s sacrifice. I’m sure there’s more than a couple Black coaches who have said less than flattering things about White guys in the past.
They will never be subject to the same scrutiny you’re giving Gruden right now.
Meh. People say "Eat that L" too. Heck Jameis once did a whole thing on "eating a W".
Anybody here ever have a boss who if you referred to them as a “f@ggot” and “clueless p&ssy” in an email wouldn’t have fired you?
Gruden made his bed. It wasn't a one off lack of judgement.
It wasn't an old habit from days gone by rearing their head.
Dudes can skate on the sexual stuff in the NFL. I mean beating and raping women are not death sentences.
BUT calling out a majority of the players by saying racial things is pretty much career suicide.
He pulled the trigger, jumped off the cliff and downed the pills all in one swoop.
Yes, they were bad. But the context of a coach makes it worse. It’s the comments and the authority that make it more than a sacrifice.
Let me change the context to get at my point. You’ve mentioned that you are White Hispanic and that your family is from Cuba. Let’s say you and some other guy who isn’t those things go up for a promotion. One guy reviews your applications and makes the decision on who gets the promotion. You think everything went well, but other guy gets the job.
A few months later, you learn that your company is being sued. They go into the decisionmaker’s email and find out that he has been saying some pretty discriminatory stuff about Cubans. Really awful shit. And now that’s become public. There’s no emails at all about your application or why you were rejected over that other guy for promotion.
How much faith would you have that you got a fair shot at the promotion? How much would you believe that his decision was made fairly and objectively, and not for a discriminatory reason? And how much would you trust his decisions in the future that impact you to be objective?
Head coaches make those kinds of decisions all the time. And when someone in the job is discovered to have said what Gruden did, the faith in objectivity disappears. And when the head coach’s behavior causes everyone second guesses whether the decisions are for the right reason or the wrong one, a head coach just can’t be effective. He just can’t lead.
And maybe the decisions are above board and objective. It doesn’t matter. Because they no longer carry the appearance of fairness and objectivity. That’s the problem.
That’s why he’s not just a sacrifice to the PC gods. His behavior made it impossible for him to continue doing his job. That’s the point I’m getting at.
Well RG isnt his boss, but your point is still valid.
Your entire argument is about optics and speculation over private statements Gruden made, not facts.
If that's enough to kill a coaching career, then a Hell of a lot of coaches have some deleting to do with respect to their text messages and emails... both Black and White.
That’s not optics. Optics is how things look to the outside. It has nothing to do with the outside. It has to do with the acceptance of his decisions within his own team.
It’s akin to due process. People expect both fair decisions and the appearance of fair decisions. When you have an objective reason to believe that the decision maker isn’t making a fair decison, you lose faith in the decision.
It isn’t “optics.” Fair treatment and the appearance of fair treatment are crucial for decisions to be accepted. And Gruden’s behavior undercut his ability to do that. And that’s why he’s no “sacrifice.” If he hadn’t resigned, he would have been properly fired for cause.
Agree with this except for the fact that I think it does affect his ability to coach the team but not for the reasons you say.
I don't think his racist points of view would affect who plays and who doesn't. He is paid to win games and will put the best player in there (who is usually black) to win. If what you are implying was true, there would be an increased number of white players starting for the Raiders and that simply isn't the case. They breakdown similarly to other teams.
The place where it would show up is if Gruden has the ability to negotiate their salaries and lets the white players negotiate higher salaries.
The biggest issue is not Gruden doing things to affect the black players but in reality, the black players would say "I don't want to play for that racist SOB" and screw with his job by not following his rules or taking his lead as a coach.
If Gruden was also the GM, that could certainly the the case. But even if not, playing time affects the next salary negotiations. Coaches know when a player has certain incentives in their contract and what it would take to meet them. And so on and so forth.
There’s an infinite number of small, undocumented decisions that a coach makes that can impact a player’s livelihood, even more when they also serve as the GM. And yes, free agency has made the ability for players to leave easier and no question that good talent could walk too.
All in all, Gruden’s behavior was bad for business far beyond any general public opinion.
I dont think it should kill his coaching career, but that is up to the organizations that hire him. I know for a fact that many other coaches have said worse. The problem is that these comments have reached the public and now it's a matter of what future employers are comfortable with. I really don't feel sorry for him. He makes an outrageous sum of money in a high profile job, which means he is representing his employer 24 hours per day.
A black coach might have a somewhat longer leash, at least with regard to the racial stuff. But I don't think many would keep their jobs under the same circumstances.