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Perspective on Intolerance

Discussion in 'GatorNana's Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by SeabudGator, Jan 10, 2021.

  1. SeabudGator

    SeabudGator GC Hall of Fame

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    Many on the right, reacting to condemnation of those on the left of their views, say "so much for the tolerant left". We should all understand the "The Paradox of Intolerance." First, 'tolerance' is defined as disagreeing with others but respecting their right to their views/actions. 'Intolerance' is not being able or willing to accept that others ideas or ways are different.

    Philosopher Karl Popper observes that a society that is tolerant without limit will in time be seized by the intolerant. Thus, a society must be intolerant of intolerance. He stated:  "In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant."
    Does Democracy Demand the Tolerance of the Intolerant? Karl Popper's Paradox | Open Culture

    When counterprotestors fight against white supremacy or social media platforms refuse to carry content that propagates hate, insurrection and lies, it is refusing to tolerate intolerance. Examples of things that we MUST be intolerant of are racism, xenophobia, hate groups, and hate speech. We should condemn racist speech for to allow it equal footing, legitimacy and platform with all speech can ultimately result, as it did with the Nazis, in societal destruction. Distinguish that from BLM protesters (not looters - go to the web site) or gay people simply asking for equality or justice.

    So we tolerate protesting and free speech, but we do not tolerate protesting or free speech that advocates harm or hatred toward others. We advocate dissent, but we do not advocate dissent that advocates harm or the keeping of rights from others.

    Do some people go too far condemning speech as racist or mysogynistic that is not? Yes. And that is open to fair debate and I have been called out for comments - some of which I agreed with and others I explained my position on and agreed to disagree. This is all a balance, but I often respond to troubling comments as follows: "If you do not wish to be labelled a racist, do not say racist comments or be willing to explain why it is not racist." When your leader tells the hate group Proud Boys to "stand by", lies and advocates for overthrow of a fair election, calls immigrants criminals ("though I'm sure some are good people"), and refers to Nazis marching as "good people", we should all be intolerant.

    The paradox does exist but that does not mean we should tolerate intolerance in our country.
     
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  2. slayerxing

    slayerxing GC Hall of Fame

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    Good post. Important to remind people of this from time to time especially right now.
     
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  3. altalias

    altalias GC Hall of Fame

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    Its okay to be intolerant if you believe you are right and you assign evil motives to those who disagree with you? Since both sides think the other side is evil that would pretty much van everything.
     
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  4. Trickster

    Trickster Premium Member

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    Wow! Wonderful and thoughtful post. I fear it will not reach the deaf ears of those who ought to hear it, and contemplate it.
     
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  5. gators8

    gators8 GC Hall of Fame

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    MAGA baby !!! Truth is the dumbasses have done the exact opposite.
     
  6. BLING

    BLING GC Hall of Fame

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    Sounds like a more eloquent way of describing a view I’ve held for a long time.

    I remember back when those Neo Nazi groups rebranded as “alt-right” and kept booking speaking engagements on college campuses, and the standard thing was “the liberal elite are suppressing my free speech, I’m the victim here!”, “look at that intolerant left”.

    My take to all was basically, screw off, I don’t tolerate Nazi’s.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2021
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  7. SeabudGator

    SeabudGator GC Hall of Fame

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    If people cannot tell the difference between advocating for equal treatment as part of racial justice and advocating for white supremacy (or this being a "white nation") then there is not much we can do. Is it really hard to differentiate one asking for the right to marry anybody of their choice and not be denied equal rights (visit the hospital when your mate is ill, adopt children) from those condemning as evil anybody who lives differently than them? Is hate and denial of rights hard to spot?

    Sorry, no. It is not "assigning evil motives to the other side." When the other side is preaching hate, discrimination, cultural supremacy, xenophobia, and denial of democracy, they do not need to be assigned evil. They are evil. If folks do not recognize it, then as Popper says (and Arnold Schwarzenegger said in his recent video) they too are part of the evil movement.
     
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  8. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Repeat after me: "I will not tolerate intolerance."




    DOH!
     
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  9. SeabudGator

    SeabudGator GC Hall of Fame

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    "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function." F. Scott Fitzgerald.

    Many of the current shortcomings in this country come from a failure of our educational system where people watch "The Simpsons" (using your 'DOH'), or worse reality TV, as a form of seeing the world. When the news sources that OBJECTIVELY lie the most are watched by millions, we should not blame the misled masses, or even the lying profiteers, but our educational system. Nonetheless, failing to tolerate intolerance is philosophically consistent other than in a grossly simplistic construct or an idealized utopia.
     
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  10. WC53

    WC53 GC Hall of Fame

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    Education cannot overcome the brainwashed families..
    And could you say that agin using single syllabic words for us old country folks
     
  11. SeabudGator

    SeabudGator GC Hall of Fame

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    I thought about this post - it is interesting. I am from the south and have rural ancestors. The interesting aspect to me is that my ancestors believed in hard work, equal chance, and progress of their heirs and society. What we see now is manufactured conflict amongst the poorest in society, devolved conflict over who gets aid ignoring the manna above, and an utter rejection that we are a society.

    You are right, at the core of our country - the blue collar level - the familial and tribal has replaced notions of America as a land of opportunity and a great melting pot. That destruction of belief by the right wing and Trump is a horrid undermining of America.
     
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  12. fda92045

    fda92045 GC Hall of Fame

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    Media literacy is really lacking in the US, but so is what @WC53 is suggesting -- brainwashed families.
     
  13. WC53

    WC53 GC Hall of Fame

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    Back before I got old....
    In management the lack of critical thinking skills would drive me nuts. Jumping to conclusions based on beliefs rather than putting together the legos in front of them. Ironically, some of the smartest folks were the worst for not seeing the forest .....
    Education is severely lacking, but by my unsage wisdom... we underestimate what kids are capable of,especially children of color. Then that damn core school work gets in the way of travel ball, dance, drama, track, music....... priorities and perspective
     
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  14. PD

    PD GC Columnist VIP Member

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    The problem is the right thinks that their heinous behavior and abhorrent beliefs should be tolerated.

    Tolerance should only be sought and thought righteous when the differences to tolerate are on merit moral and decent, or something with which one is born. Beliefs, ideas and goals that are on merit empirically immoral, evil, cruel, ugly, hateful, etc., in other words “bad”, should never be tolerated.
     
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  15. Speedofsand

    Speedofsand GC Hall of Fame

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    Tolerant left is wanting to throw molotov cocktails at The White House and taking children away from parents to put them in 're-education camps'. Lucky for us Trump lost and The White House didn't burn
     
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  16. docspor

    docspor GC Hall of Fame

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    Conservatives (so, not you) should have never tolerated Trump & we would not have had to tolerate 4 years of BIG GOV incompetence, lefty trade deals & disregard for the constitution.
     
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  17. SeabudGator

    SeabudGator GC Hall of Fame

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    Hmm... no molotov cocktails thrown at the white house so this is just BS words that you pulled either from your butt or some right wing rag since you gave no cite. Even if some idiot on the left (unlikely to be a leader) said something like that (unproven), the following is asked. Was that the position of the left and its leaders - as the attack on our democracy and capital was to the right? Did they assemble a mob and undermine our democracy? Did they physically assault people? No? How about you address the Nazis in front of you before going to Berkeley and yelling at hippies for being commies?

    As for the tolerant left, read the original post that discusses the dangers to society of tolerating intolerance. Kind of the topic (a concept with which you struggle). Nobody should tolerate racism, undermining democracy, or threatening violence.
     
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  18. RIP

    RIP Election Prediction Savant VIP Member

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    Oof.
     
  19. nolancarey

    nolancarey GC Hall of Fame

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    Now that I can see ratings, I'm super curious as to why @leftcoastgator marked this off-topic.
     
  20. tilly

    tilly Superhero Mod. Fast witted. Bulletproof posts. Moderator VIP Member

    This paragraph nails it.

    One issue many have is that only one side seems to get to decide what does or does not count as tolerance or need to be tolerated.
    Meanwhile the other side will often counter with "I thought you were tolerant". Heck I have said that myself.

    Real conversation. Understanding why we believe whet we do. That is much more effective than labels and decrees by sides.

    Good post by the way. I don't agree with every letter of it it, but it is certainly on track and thought provoking.
     
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