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Neil DeGrasse Tyson vs Ben Shapiro on transgenders in sports

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by 108, Mar 18, 2023.

  1. tilly

    tilly Superhero Mod. Fast witted. Bulletproof posts. Moderator VIP Member

    By the way @jjgator55 , this was clearly a joke. If we are going to be besties, i need you to get my humor. ;)
     
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  2. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    I think you should at least try to be intellectually honest in your presentation of the argument from the other side. It isn't based on the fact that they were able to "make a claim." They have been through pretty extensive treatments that have dramatically changed their bodies physically before somebody has been allowed to compete, at least at highly competitive levels.

    Take the Lia Thomas situation for example. Lia made the claim and then waited years to compete while on hormone treatments. This dramatically slowed her swimming times from prior to the treatment when her times should have been getting cut due to physical development and training. The question is a far more subtle question than you are trying to make it. It essentially is "do the treatments cut their performance enough to make it still fair?" That is going to be an individual sport-specific question. In swimming, it appears to not do enough for short distances, while it might for longer distances (although that is based on N=1 from the Lia Thomas situation, as she was a borderline elite distance swimmer as a man and became an elite middle distance to short swimmer as a woman).

    You are attacking a strawman because you would prefer that to be the argument that you fight against than the reality. And that is intellectually dishonest.
     
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  3. jjgator55

    jjgator55 GC Hall of Fame

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    The truth, in my eyes anyway, is that you come across as having issues with strong women, and your comments about RM and personal attacks on me gives me no reason to think otherwise. I’m not saying that’s who you are, but that’s the way you were presenting yourself to me.
     
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  4. gator95

    gator95 GC Hall of Fame

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    So, you going to call out MD who thinks Lia Thomas should have the right to compete? I thought you said you know of no "liberals" who want this?
     
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  5. gator95

    gator95 GC Hall of Fame

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    Sure, lets be intellectually honest. Let's see how "Lia Thomas" did as a male swimming and how she did as a "transgender". Doesn't win anything as a male and is a national champ as a women.
     
  6. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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    That study has value but it’s also simplistic. Push ups and sit ups don’t give a basketball player a longer wingspan, or the ability to palm a basketball with a much larger hand, or an average of six inches in height over a female. And if you swim, longer arms matter regardless of hormones. If you weight-lift broader shoulders matter, if you play tennis longer arms matter, if you play soccer those 6 inches matter on any cross into the box, and for volleyball almost all that stuff matters etc etc etc.
    No matter how hard a relatively small percentage may try to normalize this, there are inherent advantages, which the majority of the country understands. To point that out isn't anti trans, it’s pro fairness. And to that point, most Americans want transgender people protected, but also don’t want biological men competing with women.
    Those who simplify the argument to “bigots” being the ones opposed are at some point finally going to realize why they aren’t winning this argument.
    And some of those points were nit directed at you, just easier to put into one post.

    How Americans view policy proposals on transgender and gender identity issues, and where such policies exist
     
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  7. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    As a freshman, she posted the sixth fastest time of that year in the 1,000. It isn't like she wasn't in the top class of swimmers as a freshman male.
     
  8. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    I didn't say that transgenders have the right to compete in every sporting event that they want. You, as usual, are lying.
     
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  9. jjgator55

    jjgator55 GC Hall of Fame

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    The problem with that argument is that those same differences are present in cis females. You can’t say a trans can’t participate because their arms are longer until you have a rule stating arms shall not exceed a certain length.
     
  10. tilly

    tilly Superhero Mod. Fast witted. Bulletproof posts. Moderator VIP Member

    1. I have always found the way Rachel copies the mannerisms and styles of Olbermann to be amateurish. I have no question about her intelligence.

    2. I banged heads equally with you before I knew your gender.;) In all seriousness our disagreements have nothing to do with you being a woman.

    I have said many times that my shift towards the center and my mover from supporting Trump were mostly predicated by my daughters. (Both much more liberal than I.) They're strength has helped me be more open minded to seeing other perspectives.

    I hired an all female team of leaders to work for me because strength is strength. They were the best for the jobs. I have an open spot on that team and will be more than glad to offer it to another strong woman if need be. (Although warehouse manager jobs are mostly applied for by men).

    All arguments aside, I can assure you that the image you have is far from accurate.
     
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  11. Tjgators

    Tjgators Premium Member

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    There are a few liberals here that don't, so now you know a few. I can promise you there are many in the LGBTQ crowd that think it is wrong as well.

    Women's sports have come a long way and women have fought hard for an even playing field. Think of all the young women that have put in thousands of hours to hone their craft. Before school, after school and on weekends. It's not cheap either. Let's say one of these young women was your daughter. She made it to the state championship in track. She had the opportunity to become state champion, something that would be with her forever. But she got beat by a biological male and came in 2nd. If you think that is okay, you don't really care about women. Just a fact. There are divisions, age brackets and weight classes for a reason.
     
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  12. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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    Then by that by that logic there’s no reason for women to have a separate class at all, since some women might be bigger or stronger or faster than some men even today. Yet they were created, why? Because The average man is still bigger than the average woman, the tallest man is still taller than the tallest woman etc.
    Women’s sports were created specifically so that women have a much more level playing field. This harms that, and it does it for a small minority over the vast majority.
    Put another way, it’s entirely possible that every female sports record will eventually be held by a trans person. Because in the end they will be the outliers on the high ends of all those traits. Size, length, breadth etc. It will no longer be for women. The exception might be gymnastics where being smaller helps.
    and no one seems to care what all that means for CIS women, other than “deal with it so trans people feel validated”.
    Again the American public gets the issue, they support trans people. They just don’t want it at the expense of 50 percent of the population when it comes to sports, that’s not equity. And that’s not unreasonable.
    Jmo.
     
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  13. WESGATORS

    WESGATORS Moderator VIP Member

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    People will say this is faux outrage, and while it doesn't impact me on a personal level by any stretch of the imagination, it does impact female athletes:



    People have a side to pick on this or they can abstain from picking a side altogether. But make no mistake, this is a real issue that is coming to a head.

    Go GATORS!
    ,WESGATORS
     
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  14. jjgator55

    jjgator55 GC Hall of Fame

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    My husband has an idea that might work. He said at the high school level track and field they have a separate category and championship for disabled athletes so athletic participation doesn’t have to be binary. In individual sports like track, swimming, etc. let them compete with the women but score them separately. In team sports it may be more difficult because there are so few trans athletes that it might be difficult to find enough to form teams, but put it out there and see what happens.
     
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  15. okeechobee

    okeechobee GC Hall of Fame

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    This post goes to show to what degree normal people have been gaslighted into "accepting trans people". Score them separately?? They will never go for that.
     
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  16. l_boy

    l_boy 5500

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    Yeah as a swimmer I can identify with the amount of effort people like her out in (which to be clear was a lot more than I put in). It’s just fundamentally wrong.

    As I’ve said previously it is plausible that I could have won the state high school women’s competition in a couple of events 40 years ago. I was nowhere near the best in men’s.

    Having said that I’m not sure what she is doing in the Texas Senate. I really don’t think this is something that needs to be resolved by legislatures.

    Thomas being in the women’s locker room naked and the other swimmers not being warned is a collosal #### up.

    I do think this is problematic from title 9, and I suspect ultimately this ends up in the courts.
     
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  17. gator95

    gator95 GC Hall of Fame

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    Sure, show me where you posted that you are against Transgenders in a sport. I'll wait. So I assume if you can't find a post saying that you will admit you were lying, again LOL.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2023
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  18. gator95

    gator95 GC Hall of Fame

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    "Will Thomas" was ranked 462 as a male swimmer. And please show me Will Thomas's name here in 2017-2018 as being in the top 6?

    upload_2023-3-21_8-16-18.png

    upload_2023-3-21_8-14-29.png
     
  19. VAg8r1

    VAg8r1 GC Hall of Fame

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    For a point of comparison this is the difference between Lia Thomas best time in the 500-yard freestyle and that of Katie Ledecky..
    Katie currently holds the world record in women's 500-yard freestyle at 4:24.06 seconds on the clock; Thomas put in a spectacular performance and clocked a time of 4:33.24.
    Lia Thomas vs Katie Ledecky: How Far Is She From Breaking NCCA Records?