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Mike Pence doesn't have a good record when it comes to outbreaks

Discussion in 'GatorNana's Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by WarDamnGator, Feb 27, 2020.

  1. LouisvilleGator

    LouisvilleGator GC Hall of Fame

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    Why stop there? Why not one penny in taxes to save one life and decrease your future taxes, plus you receive million dollar check in the mail each day, plus UF never loses a game in any sport ever again? I mean as long as we're dreaming up silly fantasies that would never play out in real life, why would you stop there?

    What you're proposing is pure fiction.
     
  2. cluckugator

    cluckugator VIP Member

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    And unfortunately it has infected one of our major political parties. I’m a die hard Reagan / Romney Republican.

    Neither of them would defend this non-sense. You’ve seen Romney’s positions. Reagan said some thing like “welfare queen” that were dumb, but I firmly believe he would have changed his stance as that was a different time (as Biden has done).
     
  3. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    The issue is that this is playing out in real life. There are multiple programs that lower death rates. One of them is mentioned here. Another, Later Gator, was mentioned as well (and most colleges have similar types of programs if the bars aren't within easy walking distance).
     
  4. gatorknights

    gatorknights GC Hall of Fame

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    Speaking for myself, I would have no problem whatsoever paying another 50 cents per beer to help fund free drives home if it saves lives and prevents jail sentences. I don't go out and party to the point where I need a ride, however I did go to college in the early 80s. Need I say more. As the saying goes, "there but by the grace of god". I'm not saying that if it were available I would change my party habits or I would start closing the clubs down at closing time, but there are those out there who are going to do it regardless. So why not pay to protect the innocent. Isn't that why we pay taxes for police and fire protection? Fund the military? What's another 50 cents to protect us and our neighbors? I pay homeowners association dues that funds the security gates at the entry for my neighborhood. I've been here 7 years, and not even heard of a single burglary. Is that money well spent on our part? I think it is, and I dutifully and gratefully pay them.
     
  5. LouisvilleGator

    LouisvilleGator GC Hall of Fame

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    You know we keep repeating the same thing over and over, but nobody has really addressed the question brought up by one of the other posters on page 1. Why was this spike in HIV confined to one county? I believe Indiana has almost 100 counties. So, if Mike Pence truly caused this epidemic (lol), why was the spike confined to one rural county and not a statewide phenomena? If what you're saying is true, we should have seen a similar spike statewide. Nobody ever answered his question. I know the answer, because I'm not terribly far from that area, but I was waiting to see if one of you would address it first.
     
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  6. cluckugator

    cluckugator VIP Member

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    We already walked through the economics of the needle program. You admitted it was better for tax payers.

    We then started debating the moral high ground of the issue. I gave a very simple hypothetical to see where funding bad behavior was actually beneficial to society.

    You know I am correct and started talking about personal responsibility.

    Answer the hypothetical moral question, prove me wrong on the economics of the actual needle exchange or just admit you are wrong.

    I probably had the same misguided view you did when I was a teenager.
     
  7. cluckugator

    cluckugator VIP Member

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    Because a couple of HIV positive heroin users shared a needle in that county. That is why HIV spiked in that county and Pence did an about face.

    See how easy it is to directly answer a question.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2020
  8. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    It is a pretty poor question, frankly. HIV cases tend to cluster. Basic public health stuff here.

    The outbreak started in 2011. It took them 4 years to respond in a manner that would save lives. In doing so, a study in The Lancet has now shown that about 150 HIV cases could have been prevented if they chose to respond rather than simply closing the testing center (which the state did).

    New study finds HIV outbreak in Indiana could have been prevented

    Nobody claimed he "caused" the outbreak. He worsened the situation that led to the outbreak. That is a different thing. So you are again arguing against strawmen.
     
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  9. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan GC Hall of Fame

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    Law of diminishing returns. 1 penny might save 1 life, but 5 pennies might only save 4 because it might provide more cars than rides needed. Just because a little does some good, doesn't always mean a lot does proportionally more good.

    There's also resource limitations. In this case, taxpayer money. I think we'd all be willing to give a penny to save a life every day. But who could afford $1 a day? $100 a day?

    The key is finding the right amount of tax funds to can do the most good without being too much of a burden to the taxpayers. Where that sweet spot lies is certainly open to constant debate.
     
  10. llm85

    llm85 NBN Bracket Master

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    If Trump is only "purportedly the POTUS" then shouldn't the real POTUS be handling this? Why are you blaming the purported person instead of the actual person?
     
  11. HallGator

    HallGator Senile Mod Moderator VIP Member

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    One thing I may have missed but don't recall seeing is the needle program can not only protect the user but the offspring of the user. Thus, you are also helping to protect the innocent.
     
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  12. LouisvilleGator

    LouisvilleGator GC Hall of Fame

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    The sweet spot is the government not confiscating the citizen's earnings to pay for the bad choices of others. Our societal ills have only gotten worse as government finds more things to throw taxpayer money at. Our country was simply not founded on those principles. You can try to outsmart it all you want, but you never will.
     
  13. VAg8r1

    VAg8r1 GC Hall of Fame

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    Trump is the real POTUS, he just doesn't behave in the manner expected of an American president. He lacks the intellectual curiosity, the competence and psychological stability expected of the POTUS. He thinks that he knows everything about everything and refuses to accept the advice of those that are more knowledgeable than he and flouts all of the norms of the office. One ironic consequence of Trump's history of malignant narcissism and his total lack of credibility is that financial markets are now even more unstable than would be the case with a normal POTUS who could be trusted.
     
  14. LouisvilleGator

    LouisvilleGator GC Hall of Fame

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    One thing I may have missed, but don't recall seeing is the huge assumption that the heroin addicts of Scott County would have went to the trouble of getting clean needles to shoot up with in the first place. Lots of people still have unprotected sex, even though condoms are readily available to them. So, our lefty friends here are making a huge leap when they just assume that a heroin addict would have done the responsible thing and went to the health department to get his/her clean needles and not share them with their fellow addicts afterwards. Heroin addicts are not exactly known for their cleanliness or good decision making.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  15. HallGator

    HallGator Senile Mod Moderator VIP Member

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    Well, if they don't make use of free needles there is no real argument pro or con but just in case they do it cuts down on the chances of them or an offspring contracting the disease and then spreading it.
     
  16. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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    Again, not wanting to aid in drug use is a very defensible position. But I am in the “what does the greatest good” camp. And simply discounting that or not acknowledging it’s value diminishes the morality argument, because there are a whole lot of moral values in preventing aids, innocent victims etc.
    Jmo.
     
  17. LouisvilleGator

    LouisvilleGator GC Hall of Fame

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    The best way to prevent HIV spread is to not engage in high risk behavior. Forcing the taxpayer to contribute to said high risk behavior is an abomination.
     
  18. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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    I think we all agree on the first part.
    The divergence is in the idea that not providing the needles would lower usage, which it doesn’t. If someone is going to use regardless, and making it safer saves taxpayers and insurance payers money and helps protect innocent victims, then there is a very fair argument that the program has value.
    If the argument is “I don’t care if it saved us all in perpetuity, we shouldn’t assist immoral behavior”, you are more than welcome to that POV. I would just say I am more of a pragmatist and disagree strongly.
     
  19. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    First, they weren't primarily heroin addicts. The primary drug was a form of opiate, not heroin.

    Second, the reason that they expanded the program in the end is that it was used (further, there have now been other counties in Indiana that have found the same thing). There are going to be individuals that don't use products or services, but your solution here is "why even bother selling condoms because only some people use them."
     
  20. LouisvilleGator

    LouisvilleGator GC Hall of Fame

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    Thank you for the level-headed reply. I am under no illusion that not providing taxpayer needles would lower heroin usage. The morality issue is the forcing others to pay for their addiction. Whatever that cost might be. If you want to start a charity and hand out clean needles to heroin addicts, go for it. I would not contribute to that charity. But I wouldn’t deny you that right. Telling me I HAVE TO contribute so someone can more safely shoot up dope is where I have the problem.
     
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