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Mike Pence doesn't have a good record when it comes to outbreaks

Discussion in 'GatorNana's Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by WarDamnGator, Feb 27, 2020.

  1. cluckugator

    cluckugator VIP Member

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    It’s a perfect example (I’m biased and took the Later Gator more than twice).

    Binge drinking = college (not a moral or medical issue IMO)
    Chugging wine at 9am before work = alcoholism (medical issue / mental health problem, but not a moral one)
    Driving Drunk = moral issue. Get an Uber or drink on your couch by yourself.

    So let’s go back to the question, would @LouisvilleGator pay a penny in tax to keep a drunk driver from killing a kid by having a government funded program for $5 Uber rides? Don’t need to assume 14 kids. Just one kid and one penny. Clearly a moral failure on the drunk driver’s part. Outcome is known. Would you pay a penny in tax to prevent that situation? It’s easier to wrap your head around alcohol since it doesn’t have the stigma of heroin.

    Do you “support” the drunk by getting him an Uber so he can do the same thing tomorrow? Do you let the kid live or keep your crazy moral high ground about not enabling drunks who are so far gone they get behind the wheel? Do you decline the penny in tax, let the kid die and punish the alcoholic with a lengthy prison sentence?
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  2. Kirby

    Kirby GC Legend

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    You are so obsessed with your hatred of all things Trump and Pence that you cant even see this was sarcasm. I’ll pray for you too
     
  3. WarDamnGator

    WarDamnGator GC Hall of Fame

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    I was being sarcastic, too. I don’t really pray.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  4. LouisvilleGator

    LouisvilleGator GC Hall of Fame

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    You again frame your argument will a completely false premise. You will need to rid yourself of that false premise if you want to continue the discussion. I wouldn't be giving anyone AIDS. Mike Pence didn't give anyone AIDS or HIV. The ones who engaged in high-risk behavior knowing full well it was high-risk behavior gave themselves HIV/AIDS. This is not a point-of-view. This is fact. You need to get the facts straight first if you want to have an honest debate. You can still argue your position without putting the blame for someone else's reckless behavior on myself or Mike Pence.

    Now that we've gotten that out of the way (for the 7th and final time), no, I categorically believe that requiring taxpayers to foot the bill for their neighbors really bad life decisions is immoral and it should be deemed unconstitutional. The framers would have had a cow. If you're trying to make the argument that my health insurance premiums would be higher if we didn't hand out clean needles for people to shoot up heroin, I have a bridge to sell you that'll take you from the Keys all the way to Cuba. If that is your argument, you'd be wrong.

    If more people happen to contract HIV/AIDS through very high risk behavior, we call that life. You make very bad life decisions and that sort of thing will happen to you. I am not terribly concerned about it, because I nor my family engage in high risk behavior that would put us at risk to exposure. I also know that whether we hand out free needles to shoot up with or not, HIV is here to stay until they find a cure. There's no getting away from it. You're making a lot of false assumptions based upon a false premise.

    And again, even if you could show me a study that said my health premiums are lower because we give addicts free needles, I would still be against the idea for the reason that I believe it is completely immoral for a government to require her citizenry to fund horrible life choices made by others. But the idea that the gov't giving out needles reduces my healthcare costs is a fantasy.
     
  5. LouisvilleGator

    LouisvilleGator GC Hall of Fame

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    You just need to rid yourself of the idea or premise that other people's really bad life choices are the fault of someone other than they themselves. I am not responsible for somebody dying, because they got behind the wheel drunk, just because I wouldn't pay for an uber for them. THEY are responsible for getting themselves home safely, not me. If they die, that sucks, but THEY did that to themselves. Nobody else did. If nothing else, I hope some day you can at least understand this. It's not a debatable issue. YOU are responsible for the choices YOU make in life, not somebody else.
     
  6. WarDamnGator

    WarDamnGator GC Hall of Fame

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    The fantasy here is the idea that an HIV outbreak caused by a policy change over 25 cent needles is the "morally" right choice. But since you still think it's about dollars and not lives (which makes you grasping for the moral high ground even more funny) it costs up to $20,000 for HIV medication, and half the people with HIV are on medicaid ... so do the math of what Pence's outbreak cost the Indiana tax payers.
     
  7. WarDamnGator

    WarDamnGator GC Hall of Fame

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    There we go, folks, from the guy claiming to have the moral high ground ... well done.
     
  8. cocodrilo

    cocodrilo GC Hall of Fame

    Apr 8, 2007
    Which assumes, of course, free will, something totally abstract, independent of genetics and environment. OTOH if things are determined, we can do things to help determine them. Even though our act of helping is itself determined, it can make you feel good and might bring good karma (reciprocal altruism). All part of life's grand illusion.
     
  9. LouisvilleGator

    LouisvilleGator GC Hall of Fame

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    I mean, where do you stop? Should we not put people in prison if they grew up with really shitty childhoods or in a rough neighborhood? Where do you draw the line for making excuses for other people making truly bad life choices? Sure, I fully acknowledge certain things in life might be harder for some than it is others, but that does not absolve oneself of their personal accountability and there have been way too many people who've overcome an enormous set of obstacles to live really great lives. Each day you wake up, YOU have the choice whether you're going to make it a great day or a really bad one. Mike Pence doesn't decide that for you.
     
  10. cocodrilo

    cocodrilo GC Hall of Fame

    Apr 8, 2007
    I'm not going to argue free will v. determinism (or anything else) with you. I was just pointing out the issue, which of course raises moral questions about accountability, etc. That's why I mentioned "life's grand illusion." Society has to function as if we have free will whether we do or not. We don't have any "choice"!
     
  11. LouisvilleGator

    LouisvilleGator GC Hall of Fame

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    Very few successful people don't have control of their lives and the ones who don't aren't going to stay successful for very long. Their lives will suffer in some way. It's not so much about having the free will to decide your life choices, it's the reliance on others to determine your success and happiness or lack thereof which bothers me most.
     
  12. AndyGator

    AndyGator GC Hall of Fame

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    Hopefully Pence bucks his record. And hopefully the market drop ebbs. Unfortunately we are in position that the coronavirus may trigger a significant market drop, warranted or not, and could then trigger a recession. That is not good news for anybody.
     
  13. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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    it’s good news for the money I put in regularly, getting a much better price on my buys. I have $2500 or so going in tonight with EOD pricing.

    Seriously though, I don’t want to see anyone hurt or suffering from it so it’s not something I am cheering for. But a periodic pullback is actually a healthy thing longer term, it stops larger bubbles (like 2008) from forming, clears out the waste from the economy making it more efficient, makes stocks more affordable, and in many cases goods as well. And we are long overdue for one.
     
  14. cocodrilo

    cocodrilo GC Hall of Fame

    Apr 8, 2007
    If a recession were to help cost Trump the election, I think a recession would be the lesser of two evils (the other being Trump's reelection). There's often a price to pay for honor and decency, not to mention freedom.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  15. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan GC Hall of Fame

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    Where do we stop? By answering the question which decisions do the most good for the most people. Sounds simple, but reasonable people often disagree. But what we can do is look at past results, analyze the data, and make assumptions about what would most likely happen next to come to a consensus as what is the best course of action.

    When it comes to someone committing a crime, we know that if we let a person get away with it, they are highly likely to keep committing crimes. Often escalating to more serious crimes as they continue unabated. For society at large, this is not beneficial, which is why criminals must be stopped and punished. The more lawless a society, the less it has a chance to thrive, in general.

    With the needle program, let's look at the outcomes. Provide needles and the costs are minimal, and the spread of HIV is significantly slowed. Stop supplying the needles and does the drug rate go down? No. Does the spread of HIV increase? Yes. Do the costs for the public go up? Yes again, as treating someone with HIV is exponentially higher than the cost of providing clean needles.

    So what's the better outcome? Spending pennies for clean needles and slowing the spread of AIDS? Or spending thousands more on medical treatment for AIDS patients that could have been mostly preventable? In an ideal world, we don't have to make this choice as people will choose not to do heroin. But we don't live in an ideal world, and often times, the choices we make lie in the gray areas.
     
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  16. cluckugator

    cluckugator VIP Member

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    So just to confirm, you wouldn’t pay a penny in taxes to stop a drunk driver from killing a kid?

    And keep the Tony Robbins BS about personal responsibility out of this. Grew up middle class and came home with a report card of straight C freshman year of high school. My dad got me a job at K-Mart and said this is where you will be working if you don’t apply yourself. Never got a B+ (including my 4.0 GPA at UF), until my MBA at Northwestern.

    Happily married with two kids, a job you could never get, a wife that is about to make partner at Goldman and financial freedom at 33.

    Again, save the Tony Robbins BS for someone else. We are talking about people that aren’t in that situation or the Wolf of Wall Street aviator you seem to look up to (Patrick Bateman in American Pyscho is way cooler if you want to be a fake Wall Street guy).

    Would you pay a penny in tax to save a drunk driver from killing an innocent kid?
     
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  17. cluckugator

    cluckugator VIP Member

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    A recession is coming. They always do after expansions (kind of the way things work). Let’s hope it comes before the election and is short lived.

    Trump’s stock market boom being blown up by China is pure karma. If he wanted to combat China TPP was the answer. Of course he could never admit that b/c it was an Obama era policy.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. LouisvilleGator

    LouisvilleGator GC Hall of Fame

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    Frankly, it's a stupid question, for a number of reasons. The first, being the most obvious, that you could literally spend trillions a year to stop people from dying and you'd be unsuccessful. So, what you're proposing is pure fantasy. Have a nice weekend.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2020
  19. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    People die, so it shouldn't matter if it is shown that more people will die might be the single worst moral position that I have ever seen. It is the exact opposite of morality. Unfortunately, it is the type of callousness to human life that tends to result in human rights abuses.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2020
    • Agree Agree x 3
  20. cluckugator

    cluckugator VIP Member

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    Tried to simplify it for you since the needle program is complex (trying to be nice; it isn’t).

    Yes or no to my question? One penny in taxes to save one life and decrease your future taxes. You support or don’t?

    Your non answer is an answer...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2020