Welcome home, fellow Gator.

The Gator Nation's oldest and most active insider community
Join today!

Manafort sentenced

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by danmann65, Mar 13, 2019.

  1. BLING

    BLING GC Hall of Fame

    3,552
    332
    423
    Apr 16, 2007
    I thought all states had "double jeopardy" protections? It would be surprising if they didn't. i always assumed that was pretty fundamental precedent to our legal system, not something up to the states... maybe I'm wrong. The states might have their own thresholds though.

    Of course the prospect of a presidential pardon (and for corrupt purposes) is what makes this a discussion. But from the sounds of it NY is looking to charge him with different crimes the feds did not charge him for. Using different laws on their books not covered in the federal statutes. So as to attempt to thread the needle based on their standards. Will have to see if the legal argument holds water.

    Seems like a good legal move though if one is interested in actual justice, and not just political games. Manafort was convicted by a jury in one trial and plead guilty in another, and actually got off light on the sentencing considering the full scope of his crimes, anyone that actually wants this guy free is just a blinded political hack. The ideal outcome would simply be that New York State is able to uphold the equivalent of his existing federal sentence and keep it free from corrupt Presidential influence.
     
  2. VAg8r1

    VAg8r1 GC Hall of Fame

    7,555
    581
    533
    Apr 8, 2007
    You are correct that under New York state law Manafort cannot be prosecuted for the same crimes which he was convicted of in the federal system, which is why New York indicted him for alleged mortgage fraud and other state crimes. And let's not forget that evasion of state taxes (not sure whether that was included in the indictment or not) is not the same crime as evasion of federal taxes. There are probably plenty of state crimes that Paul Manafort may have committed that are unrelated to his federal convictions and are beyond the ability of Trump to issue pardons. I'm not in favor of piling on but I do believe that a defendant who has been convicted of federal crimes should not be rewarded through pardons for doing the bidding (either expressly or implicitly) of the president.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  3. duchen

    duchen VIP Member

    3,620
    1,015
    713
    Nov 25, 2017
    ConstitutionL double jeapordy only protects against prosecution by the same sovereign for the same crime. So, whole the federal government could not prosecute Manafort for the same offenses as in the casss prosecuted, a state can. New York has a statute extending double jeapordy to state prosecutions for crimes already prosecuted federally. But, the offenses have to be the same. As the example above shows, failure to pay state taxes or state rent fraud are different crimes even if they arose out of same conduct that gave rise to the federal prosecution. Plus, there is no double jeapordy proscription against prosecuting the charges for which the jury hung at either level (except to the extent that Manafort’s plea may have precluded it). SCOTUS has a case now in which it is reviewing the different sovereign question.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. VAg8r1

    VAg8r1 GC Hall of Fame

    7,555
    581
    533
    Apr 8, 2007
    The case before the SCOTUS involves a crime that is identical at both the state and federal level. It was possession of a firearm by a convicted felon. By the way if the court finds that jeopardy attaches following a conviction by one sovereign, it would be reversing almost two hundred years of precedent. The defendant/appellant's argument is that there is much more overlap between the state and federal systems now than there has been historically. Still don't think it could save Manafort or any other defendant in a similar situation.
    Supreme Court double jeopardy case could impact presidential pardon power - CNNPolitics
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. madgator

    madgator GC Hall of Fame

    9,638
    604
    788
    May 28, 2007
    South Florida

    Yes but again that is not the point

    I'm going to make this simple

    1. EVERYONE KNEW THAT MANAFORT WAS BREAKING THE LAW FOR A VERY LONG TIME. THIS IS A FACT!
    2. SINCE HE WAS PART OF THE POLITICAL RULING CLASS ESTABLISHMENT (a Bush-ite) HE WAS UNTOUCHABLE AND NOTHING WAS EVER GOING TO DONE TO HIM.
    UNTIL
    3. HE CROSSED OVER AND WORKED FOR TRUMP, THEY USED WHAT THEY KNEW AND HAD BEEN GOING ON FOR WELL OVER A DECADE AND A HALF AT LEAST TO a. TARGET TRUMP but b. MAKE MANAFORT PAY FOR HIS DECISION

    Simple enough?
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  6. duchen

    duchen VIP Member

    3,620
    1,015
    713
    Nov 25, 2017
    Other than the fact that the US Attorney for the ED of Virginia had an open investigation of Manafort that was taken over by Mueller when he was appointed. Investigations were going on after the ledgers were discovered in Ukraine. No one knew about Manafort’s accounts overseas until then. So, this post is just a false regurgitation from right wing land.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. ursidman

    ursidman GC Hall of Fame

    4,012
    1,427
    533
    Sep 27, 2007
    Interesting theory that you've constructed around 1 or 2 facts and one that presupposes you were privy to all the plotting and planning of an alleged vast RINO establishment conspiracy. I'm guessing you weren't.
     
  8. fredsanford

    fredsanford Premium Member

    9,711
    207
    548
    Dec 1, 2008
    If you have been getting away with criminal activity for decades, stay under your rock.

    If you shine a light on yourself, you deserve the consequences.

    The Trumps will learn this soon enough.
     
    • Come On Man Come On Man x 1
  9. madgator

    madgator GC Hall of Fame

    9,638
    604
    788
    May 28, 2007
    South Florida

    No, it's 100% true that people knew what Manafort was doing. Simpson had been screaming about it at the top of his lungs since 2009 having written letters to everyone including Santa Claus.....but it was ignored.
     
  10. madgator

    madgator GC Hall of Fame

    9,638
    604
    788
    May 28, 2007
    South Florida

    You just don't get it do you? The level of accepted corruption within the ruling party (the establishments of both parties).

    The distinction between the establishment democrats (Clinton crowd) and the establishment republicans (the bush crew) is all a façade. What is being labeled as "the fringe" of both parties AOC, Trump etc. are the only saving graces for the people to disrupt the system that's been playing both sides as the beat goes on.

    Now whether you agree with the policies of these sides is another story but at the end of the day I say BRAVO to both of them for having the courage to challenge the old guard.

    My only point is that situations like Manafort perfectly illuminates the corruption with that establishment and how fast they'll flip on their old friends should they cross the line.

    Corruption basically keeps them all in line.....
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  11. gatorknights

    gatorknights GC Hall of Fame

    23,907
    1,817
    1,093
    Apr 8, 2007
    Gainesville, FL
    So if one guy robs the bank in his normal course of business, that means I get to as well?
     
  12. flgator2

    flgator2 GC Legend

    894
    208
    383
    Apr 3, 2007
    Double jeopardy? Manafort may have a way to get the N.Y. indictment tossed
    Double jeopardy? Manafort may have a way to get the N.Y. indictment tossed
    Manafort may be relying on the president to issue a pardon on the federal conviction. If he is, he should refocus his energies, forget about Trump, and instead rely on his lawyers to challenge the new state indictment based on “double jeopardy” grounds. Unlike the federal pardon, the jeopardy challenge is one he at least has some control over.

    The Double Jeopardy Clause of the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution states that, “nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb.” This federal protection is made applicable to the states, including New York, by virtue of incorporation through the Fourteenth Amendment. The Double Jeopardy Clause contains two separate prohibitions: no second prosecution for the same offense after a defendant has been either convicted or acquitted; and no multiple punishments for the same offense.
    The New York State Constitution has its own double jeopardy clause. But in New York, protection against double jeopardy is statutory as well as constitutional.

    New York’s double jeopardy statute has two parts. Part one is simple: It prohibits two prosecutions “for the same offense.” Part two is not simple. It prohibits separate prosecutions for two offenses “based upon the same act or criminal transaction,” followed by the word “unless” and a list of eight very complicated exceptions to that prohibition.

    One exception allows successive prosecutions where the crimes have “substantially” different elements. Another permits a second prosecution where a different victim is involved. Yet another incorporates its own “same elements” test, but additionally requires that the different crimes be designed to “prevent very different kinds of harm or evil.”

    If, for example, the new state charges against Manafort have “substantially” different elements, or involve different “victims” (e.g., different banks) then Manafort might not have a double jeopardy defense under New York state law.

    Then again, his defense team may be able to convince a New York state judge that the state legislature intended the state double jeopardy laws to provide greater protection than the Fifth Amendment double jeopardy clause. If Manafort’s defense team can show he’s being twice prosecuted for the same offense, or based on the same act or transaction, then the court could potentially toss this indictment by the Manhattan district attorney.

    This is all very interesting on how it could play out.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  13. fredsanford

    fredsanford Premium Member

    9,711
    207
    548
    Dec 1, 2008
    I get that you want your guys to get away with crimes because you like what they are doing.

    The rest is all blah, blah, blah rationalization.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Come On Man Come On Man x 1
  14. danmann65

    danmann65 GC Legend

    902
    218
    303
    May 22, 2015
    I dont care what happens to Manafort or Trump but if you believe either party is the good guy here you are part of the problem.
     
  15. staticgator

    staticgator Senior

    202
    35
    208
    Nov 27, 2016
    Sure one party broke a myriad of laws and conspired with hostile intelligence services against Americans, but the other party sometimes says things I don't like so both sides do it.
     
  16. fredsanford

    fredsanford Premium Member

    9,711
    207
    548
    Dec 1, 2008
    The inability of most people to be able to put different things on a scale and gauge the differences between them is one of the biggest problems we face.

    "Yeah, Trump lies 25 times a day but Obama once said 57 states, so they are the same."

    No.
     
    • Winner Winner x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Fistbump/Thanks! Fistbump/Thanks! x 1
  17. gatorknights

    gatorknights GC Hall of Fame

    23,907
    1,817
    1,093
    Apr 8, 2007
    Gainesville, FL
    Kinda like the concept of "the other guy got away with it, so that gives me a free pass to do it too." Right??
     
  18. fastsix

    fastsix Premium Member

    7,010
    695
    1,243
    Apr 11, 2007
    Seattle
    Wonder if trump will give him a pardon. There's no doubt he broke the law, but putting aside the original crimes, lying under oath is the type of loyalty that should be rewarded, or at least I suspect trump thinks so.

    Former Trump campaign chair Paul Manafort is now in federal prison

    Former Trump campaign chair Paul Manafort is now in federal prison. Manafort, who was convicted and pleaded guilty in 2018 to multiple charges of fraud, tax evasion and conspiracy, is serving his 7.5 year sentence at a facility outside Scranton, Pennsylvania, according to the Federal Bureau of Prisons website.

    Manafort is being held at the United States Penitentiary Canaan in Waymart, Pennsylvania, with an expected release date of Dec. 25, 2024, according to the website. He has been in federal custody since June 2018, and was previously held in two Virginia jails. Canaan has a high-security prison and a minimum-security camp. A spokesperson for USP Canaan told NBC News that Manafort was admitted to the high-security prison. The Washington Post reportedthat Manafort is in the minimum-security camp.

    The political operative was sentenced in separate federal court cases in Virginia and D.C. in March, receiving a total sentence of seven-and-a-half years, minus credit for nine months of time served. Federal prisoners must serve at least 85 percent of their sentences before they are eligible for supervised release.

    Hours after Manafort's second sentencing, the Manhattan district attorney announced that Manafort had been indicted by a grand jury in New York on 16 counts related to residential mortgage fraud, continuing his legal troubles, this time in state court.


     
  19. gatorknights

    gatorknights GC Hall of Fame

    23,907
    1,817
    1,093
    Apr 8, 2007
    Gainesville, FL
    All the best people.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  20. CaptUSMCNole

    CaptUSMCNole GC Hall of Fame

    2,830
    167
    268
    May 23, 2007
    NCR
    I think POTUS will commute the sentence to protect Manafort from being tried in NY for the same crimes if he pardoned. If I were him, I would get out and head directly to a non-extradition country with a beach.