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Let’s say Trump declares a national emergency to start building the wall

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by The_RH_Factor, Jan 27, 2019.

  1. swgator88

    swgator88 Freshman

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    So how about the fence outside the White House? Would you say it offers zero security at all, or at least some? How about Israel's wall? Zero security at all, or at least some? How about the walls and fences that protect nuclear power plants? Zero security at all, or at least some?

    And sides are important here because, the government wastes money no matter what. Why is that? Because the government represents a monopoly, and monopolies always tend towards inefficiency, since they have no competition. And why would the government care about wasting money when not a penny of it is theirs? Every dime the government has is either stolen into existence through taxation, or stolen into existence through inflation and an artificial expansion of the money supply. The difference is, one side consistently argues in favor of lowering taxes and lowering the amount of money the government can possibly waste, and one side consistently argues in favor of increasing taxes, which again, leads to increased government waste. An argument for higher taxes is indirect argument for higher government waste.

    As for the idea that labor shortages lead to inflation, that is a myth. The only thing that leads to inflation is expanding the money supply beyond an equivalent natural expansion of the amount of goods and services in a given economy. The lousy U.S. economy of the 70s had nothing to do with labor shortages.
     
  2. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan GC Hall of Fame

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    The fence outside the White House and nuclear facilities are to keep things out like trucks that can carry bombs. Having walls around legal entry points to stop the same makes sense. But a wall in the middle of the desert where trucks can't get to is wasteful. Much of the border can't be accessed by motor vehicle. It's on foot or horse only.

    With that said, even with a wall, there is 24x7 security at the White House. Something that's impossible along 2,000 miles of border.

    As for labor shortages, simple supply and demand data they cause inflationary pressures. The inflationary effect isn't as significant as some would have you believe, but if companies are paying higher costs for labor, they aren't going to just eat those costs. They are going to raise prices to keep the profits up.

    And while the 70s stagflation had a different cause, massive labor shortages that cut things like food supply without lowering demand will result in higher prices and a hit to the economy. Causes might be different, but the effect on the country the same.
     
  3. swgator88

    swgator88 Freshman

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    Are they? Because people can carry very powerful bombs on foot too. A backpack full of high explosive would obliterate the White House. So are you sure that the fences outside the White House and nuclear facilities aren't for on-foot threats as well?

    Why is it wasteful to stop or deter people on foot?

    You don't need a truck to carry a bomb. Surely you realize there are nuclear weapons that can fit into a suitcase now, right? So if you are truly worried about bombs, you wouldn't just be worried about trucks. Bombs come in all shapes and sizes.

    If there is 24x7 security at the White House, then why did they erect a fence? Is it possibly because, contrary to your arguments here, fences and walls do in fact provide an extra layer of security?

    The point is, there is still a fence guarding the White House. If walls provided no security and are wasteful, as you believe, then they wouldn't have installed one there.

    Inflation is caused by an expansion of the money supply. Period and end of story. Anyone who says otherwise is engaging in a form of clown economics.

    If you were truly interested in preventing an increase in the cost of goods and services, then you would oppose government regulations like minimum wage. It's the cost of regulations more than anything else that companies pass on to consumers.

    There is no labor shortage. If anything, there is an oversupply of labor, hence the reason there are so many people out of work and underemployed. And with automation increasing, this trend will only get worse. You don't open the borders at a time like this, you close them, and you figure out how to get all those unemployed people back to work.

    For example, how many people are not working because it's easier to get benefits instead? How many people are not working because they feel like they are being taxed too much? How many people are not working because open border policies have created an oversupply of labor, which has driven down wages?

    Address some of these issues and you won't need to import foreign labor.
     
  4. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan GC Hall of Fame

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    Do you know how many bombs and terror attacks, successful or foiled, have been attempted by people walking into this country on foot through Mexico over the last 40 years? One. 3 people arrested in 2007. And they all entered as kids in the 1980s. The terror threat from immigrants coming in from Mexico is negligible. Sure, someone could walk carrying a bomb, but what are the success odds? 1 in 3 he'd get caught by ICE, a chance he wouldn't survive the trip, and a better chance the bomb would go off before reaching any sort of population center.

    As for underemployed Americans, show me numbers. And do you honestly think the Masters graduate working as a barista is going to give that up to build houses or turn down beds at a hotel? Besides, as this Forbes article points out, the Masters grad working at Starbucks is more myth than reality.

    As for the future and automation, we'll deal with those realities as they come up. But today, there's still a massive demand for immigrant labor. And will be for years to come. If and when that changes, arti should our immigration policy. Until then, I can show you stories about immigration crack downs leading to labor shortages in just about every state going back 20 years. Can anyone show me an instance of an immigration crack down that didn't result in a labor shortage in the US?
     
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  5. swgator88

    swgator88 Freshman

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    That's great, but let's talk about rapes, burglaries, and murders. How many of those have been attempted and carried out over the last 40 years by people who have walked across the border?

    There are no accurate statistics, but we know the government fudges their own numbers to minimize the enormity of the problem.

    Who said anything about people with master's degrees working at Starbucks? I have no idea what you are talking about right now.

    The realities are already happening.

    No there isn't, there is a demand for labor in general. And Americans who have worked and invested in the system should have first crack at those jobs, not immigrants hopping across the border.

    There's no such thing as a labor shortage in America right now. There's plenty of labor. Again, millions of Americans are out of work. Especially young Americans. The problem is, the labor is misallocated, or provided with incentives to be dependent on a government check instead of a paycheck.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
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  6. OaktownGator

    OaktownGator Guardian of the GC Galaxy Moderator VIP Member

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    The charts have been posted many times in here, but Republican administrations run much higher deficits than Democratic administrations.

    Even as high as Obama's was, he changed the trend in spite of inheriting a fiscal disaster and two wars. Dem administrations cleaning up rampant deficit increases by Pub administrations has been an established pattern for several decades now.

    Time to stow away the myth of fiscal conservatism in the Pub party. We could have actually elected a Pub who is an adult and a well established, successful fiscal conservative. But Pubs preferred a loud mouth carnival barker, peddling a bigoted, xenophobic message for our future.

    As far as a labor shortage driving up wages, you're assuming there are Americans who are even capable of doing these jobs if the pay is right. For the migrant farm work and the other jobs that require a great deal of physical and mental toughness, there are not Americans who can do them. They don't exist. There haven't been for several decades.

    Finally, if you're really serious about border security, you're looking in the wrong place. We already spend a lot on security on the southern border. More terrorists come thru the northern border, and by air. More illegal immigrants come through our ports. Our exposure to terrorist attacks is orders of magnitude greater through our ports.

    You're intent on spending exorbitant amounts trying to keep the lawn service out of your yard, when there's real terrorists and foreign agents attacking from other directions. Including from within your home, because crazy uncle Donnie fired them all up and told them he'd pay their legal fees when they get caught attacking people.

    This whole push for "the wall" completely lacks rational thought in context of our nation's security interests.
     
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  7. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan GC Hall of Fame

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    11 million people and yes, they aren't all going to be winners. But we've been over this before. Immigrants commit less felony crime than citizens. Here's another, more right-wing source with the same claim.

    That doesn't mean we can't do better, but does it mean we need to throw out all 11 million illegals, including the majority who are working jobs that citizens won't do and aren't committing crimes. A better plan would be to help all these illegals to get registered through a legal guest worker program. Make a part of the registration requirements no felony convictions. We can use the money raised by the visas to pay for more enforcement, both at the border and in the country's interior to look for undocumented immigrants, and to vet the new arrivals. Will this be 100% effective in stopping all crime committed by immigrants? Of course not, but it will help lower an already low crime rate while not hurting the country be removing millions of needed workers.

    The old conspiracy theory bullcrap. If the numbers and statistics don't support your theory, then the government must be lying about those numbers. It's a defense mechanism that ensures your opinions are never proven wrong. Sorry, but the US has been tracking U6 unemployment numbers the same way for decades now. It's not a perfect number, but it's a non-partisan number that we can use as a comparison to look at overall employment and health of the economy. For more information on how the numbers are collected, click here. If you have proof that the numbers are fudged, feel free to link it. Please don't link other unemployment numbers like U3 that also tracks underemployment. In this instance, it isn't useful.

    You have used the term underemployment before. I assumed you knew what it meant. But I guess I was wrong. Someone underemployed generally has a job where his/her education level is higher than the position he/she holds. For example, the masters degree holder working as a Starbucks barista. But the underemployed numbers are inflated per the Forbes article previously linked. And it's highly unlikely that the educated underemployed is going to take a traditional immigrant job, which will likely pay the same or less, and be more physically strenuous.

    Automation is happening, but there is still a demand for human labor that machines have not taken over yet, nor may not be ready to take over for decades. We can plan for the future, but if a farm needs 100 people during harvest season or the crop is lost, and there hasn't been a machine invented yet to help, what's the farmer to do if only 50 people with proper work authorization shows up? Lose half his crop? Hire 50 undocumented people? Pray that a machine will magically be invented and be affordable in a 24 hour period so he doesn't have to hire any of the people and just use the machine?

    The welfare queen myth. The reality is the majority of people who receive government checks are the elderly. And if you are talking government benefits like SNAP, then the next groups are children and the mentally disabled.

    [​IMG]
    And there is most definitely a labor shortage that is already causing rising prices for things like avocados and construction. You can believe your own lies and conspiracy theories, or you can truly educated yourself by reading what is actually going on. Your choice.
     
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  8. StrangeGator

    StrangeGator GC Hall of Fame

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    Good example since securing a perimeter around the White House to protect the president and his staff is exactly the same thing as protecting a few thousand miles of the US border from swarms of Mexican invaders. I don't know why we don't also have secret service agents, many with sniper rifles stationed inconspicuously at 50 to 100 yard intervals, along with live video surveillance of the entire border monitored 24 hours a day and a squadron of F-16s devoted entirely to protecting the air space above the border.

    You must have been captain of your high school's debate team.
     
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  9. wgbgator

    wgbgator Extremely Online Premium Member

    The White House fence has a great record of keeping people out

    Intruder Gets Within Steps of White House
     
  10. fastsix

    fastsix Premium Member

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    Do you want to put a roof over our country? If not, then your actions speak louder than words, and your actions to resist the building of a roof that would add another layer of security to our border with Mexico indicate that you want less security.
     
  11. LimeyGator

    LimeyGator Premium Member

    [​IMG]

    Hey ya'll.

    I'm a 'lurker' on most TH threads... unless they talk about the UK (where I feel compelled to self-deprecate and apologise on behalf of my nation, repeatedly...). But I do have a genuine question that has puzzled me. Obviously, talk of 'The Wall' is rife over here in the UK... in fact, it's mostly all we hear about the USA in our mainstream news of late...

    Basically, I wondered why talk of a wall at the Canadian Border doesn't seem to get mentioned much. It's an equally lengthy border, right?

    Yes, I appreciate there's not the same economic-inequality between the two nations either side of it, but I still read that thousands of people have crossed/attempted to cross that border illegally too in the last year or two (albeit, it only around 5% of the number at the US-Mexican Border). I wondered why it was less of a problem and if it was because a lot of asylum seekers flow out to the north. It's not hard to imagine they'll eventually figure out how to head south in big numbers eventually too, especially as Canada doesn't require visas from many countries, including Mexico.

    I just wondered what your takes on that aspect were - it's all very confusing to me. I figured 'border security' was a discrete issue - a '1' or a '0' on the 'I Care-Scale' but that would entail all borders, wouldn't it? If it were more of a talking-issue, it'd be a lot easier, I figure, for supporters of the wall to defend that it's not an issue of discrimination against Mexico, surely?
     
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  12. fredsanford

    fredsanford Premium Member

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    It's a monument Trump and his voters want to xenophobia. That's why you hear nothing about the northern border.
     
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  13. OaktownGator

    OaktownGator Guardian of the GC Galaxy Moderator VIP Member

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    The northern border is a greater security risk wrt terrorism, so this clearly is not a security issue.

    Our ports are a greater issue wrt illegal immigration than the southern border, so we don't really care about illegal immigration that much either, or we'd put greater focus on ports, which are also huge security risks wrt terrorism.

    For the people pushing this issue, it comes down to not wanting brown people (or darker) coming into the country. Even if most of them are doing jobs that Americans can't do or won't do. And their crime rates are lower than those of Americans.
     
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  14. OaktownGator

    OaktownGator Guardian of the GC Galaxy Moderator VIP Member

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    We should set our guest worker program visas at appropriate level for the labor demand we need to address.

    Over 90% of the "southern border" issue solved in one easy step. No walls, fences or any other enhanced security needed. Just treat workers like workers.

    Then look at the broad range of security issues and immigration issues posed from outside of the USA and prioritize them. Ports, air travel and cyber security all need more attention than they're getting and they're bigger risks than the southern border.

    There would still be things we can do to help better secure the southern border against real problems. More/improved barriers in some areas. Surveillance technology. Perhaps more manpower. Legalization of some drug sales to remove the black market opportunity for Mexican suppliers. It would not be this crazy issue that Trump has made of it.

    And a wall. Definitely a wall.

     
  15. rivergator

    rivergator Too Hot Mod Moderator VIP Member

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  16. ursidman

    ursidman GC Hall of Fame

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    Being reported now that the Bi-partisan congressional committee that met to work out a resolution agreed to 1.37B for a border barrier - but no wall. Will Trump sign it, declare a national emergency, or shut down the government once again?

    Is it too much to hope he will declare victory and shut up?
     
  17. fastsix

    fastsix Premium Member

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    Well 55 miles of fencing is for all intents and purposes a 30 ft. concrete wall along the entire southern border of the U.S.A. I'm pretty sure trump's base will see that as a win.
     
  18. gtr2x

    gtr2x GC Hall of Fame

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    Good questions. Throw in the whole Florida coastline. I'm sure we have no illegals coming in from the south.
     
  19. StrangeGator

    StrangeGator GC Hall of Fame

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    I'm sure there's a lot of interest in a wall on our northern border…

    From Canadians.
     
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  20. VAg8r1

    VAg8r1 GC Hall of Fame

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