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Let’s say Trump declares a national emergency to start building the wall

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by The_RH_Factor, Jan 27, 2019.

  1. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan GC Hall of Fame

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    An added measure, sure. But very expensive, not very effective, and comes with collateral damage such as flooding. Is this really the best use of our taxpayer money? Can we get the same security benefits, for much less money, and with no collateral, environmental damage? Yes. So why do we need the wall?

    The wall is a false sense of security. The costs and damage far outweigh the minimal benefits. And plenty of evidence shows this. Any evidence a wall is the most cost effective way of securing our border?
     
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  2. gator_lawyer

    gator_lawyer Premium Member

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    Could also point out that fences/walls, locked doors, locked windows, etc. exist as security measures because they deter a person who doesn't care what house he robs. That person is looking for the easy score. He doesn't care if it's your house, your neighbor's house, or a house a block over. We all recognize that a person who only wants to rob our house and doesn't care about the consequences isn't going to be stopped by a fence and a locked door.

    Accordingly, the problem with comparing a border wall to home security is that you are tacitly admitting it won't be effective if you agree with my first paragraph. Illegal immigrants are the determined burglar. They care about which country they are entering. They aren't deterred by inconveniences. They aren't willing to just hit the neighbor's house (i.e., remain in Mexico) if it's easier. They intend to specifically enter the U.S. and have a motive for doing so.
     
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  3. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan GC Hall of Fame

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    Want to keep with the silly house analogy, how secure is a house with one wall and no roof? Not very. So why only build a wall along the Southern border? Why no wall along the Northern border? Why no roof to keep out the majority of new undocumented immigrants who overstay a Visa? The answer is simple. A 2000 mile border is very different than a house.

    And just like gates around communities aren't effective, neither are border walls. And walls will cause collateral damage such as floods, like they already do in places like Nogales and El Paso. Extending the wall only increases the ecological and environmental damage. All while delivering minimal security benefits.

    Again, can anyone show why the wall is actually a good use of taxpayer money?
     
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  4. swgator88

    swgator88 Senior

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    The U.S. wastes far more money on far less important things than border security, so I don't see the problem with it. If the U.S. is going to waste money, they might as well do it trying to protect the nation.
     
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  5. BigCypressGator1981

    BigCypressGator1981 Premium Member

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    This asinine analogy again.
     
  6. citygator

    citygator Premium Member

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    That’s not what’s happening though. It’s not wasting to protect us... it’s wasting to send a xenophobic message. Trump used this issue to stir up passion for him by creating a faux emergency. Don’t be used.
     
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  7. OaktownGator

    OaktownGator Guardian of the GC Galaxy Moderator VIP Member

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    Advocating wasting money? C'mon.

    And protect the nation from what? People putting food on our tables?

    Silly shit.

    We have many far more pressing security issues than people coming across that border. It's rank stupidity to prioritize that over securing our ports and our infrastructure.

    It's just red meat to bigots and xenophobes.
     
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  8. philobeddoe

    philobeddoe Premium Member

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    I don't often agree with AzCatFan …. but do on this issue. I don't believe the US should build "Donald's Wall". I think we'd all be better served with implementation of a variety of more effective high-tech solutions ….. AND …… a meaningful guest-worker visa program that would facilitate adequate documentation of incoming foreign nationals. Additionally …. there must be some form of "amnesty" program that would accurately document (and not penalize) illegals already in the US and specifically address the "dreamers" phenomenon. Regardless of how/when a foreign national arrived in the US ….. there should be just one path to citizenship for all to "follow". If the current path is not appropriate … change it …. but change it for all seeking US citizenship.

    And, WRT to the invading caravaners ….. those folks should be accommodated in their homeland or a form of "reservation" established in CentAm or Mexico. They should not be allowed to congregate at the US-Mexico boarder.

    And ….. let's cut a few $$US$$ out of the State Dept budget and get these people some American flags!!!!!

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. fredsanford

    fredsanford Premium Member

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    What a border wall represents is the repudiation of all things Obama. "The US isn't a big, inclusive nation for everyone. If you don't look and sound a certain way, GET OUT OR STAY OUT." This is why it will never be built.
     
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  10. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan GC Hall of Fame

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    When I was younger, and used this line of reasoning, my Mother used to always come back with, "If all your friends jumped off a bridge, would you follow?" To translate to the wall, if the government has spent billions on other, wasteful boondoggle projects, should we follow by spending billions on another, wasteful boondoggle project? Or is the wall still a stupid idea that is a waste of money, and instead of following other people's mistakes, perhaps, we should learn from them?

    And again, the wall won't project the nation. Any improvement would be marginal at best. Say the wall costs X, and improves security Y. And better tech options cost .25X and improves security by 2Y. Where should we spend our money?

    Not to mention, the wall has major issues. It is a sign of xenophobia and racism, especially if we don't built a great wall along our N. border. The wall also destroys some of the habitat of about 100 endangered species and will create more environmental havoc when the wall causes floods that will potentially destroy property and potentially human causalities.

    Still don't have a problem with a wall that will waste billions, cause damages, and at best, will only bring a false sense of added security?
     
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  11. swgator88

    swgator88 Senior

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    LOL, what good is securing ports and infrastructure when the border is wide open? You don't secure a building from the inside-out, you secure it from the outside-in.

    Whining about "muh bigotry" and "muh xenophobia" is just a typical SJW misdirection.
     
  12. swgator88

    swgator88 Senior

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    The wall won't be built under Trump, because he's just a Globalist puppet working for your side, but a wall will be built in the future.

    And no, the United States isn't for everyone, it's for the American people.
     
  13. swgator88

    swgator88 Senior

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    Nope, not one bit, as it would add a measure of security to our porous southern border where the overwhelming majority of the illegal immigration occurs.
     
  14. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan GC Hall of Fame

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    Actually, for the last 7 years in a row, more immigrants became undocumented by overstaying a Visa versus entering through the S border. Your statement is false.

    We also have a labor demand for many of the people who do enter from Mexico. Why not address this first before building the boondoggle wall?

    As for your nationalist sentiment, where and when did your family emigrate tui the US? Point being, many immigrants when they came here were subject to the same, racist, nationalist sentiments we see today. For example, Irish were called monkeys, Italians were all considered criminals, and the Chinese were thought to be stupid. All came here to escape something bad and make a better life. And today, they are all Americans. What's the difference between the Irish escaping famine 170 years ago and the Honduran escaping abject poverty today?
     
  15. philobeddoe

    philobeddoe Premium Member

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    Just to address your question in the third paragraph ……. there's 170 years of economic and technological advancement which should facilitate developed nations addressing the problems of CentAms, specifically Hondurans, in their homelands. While the US benefits from a degree of immigration of low-skilled low wage demand labor ……. it should be handled in a more effective fashion that it is, today. And, I think we agree on that need for a better system to handle foreign nations wanting to work in the US for which there is demand for their labor.
     
  16. OaktownGator

    OaktownGator Guardian of the GC Galaxy Moderator VIP Member

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    You really haven't thought much about these issues. If at all.

    What makes you think a border full of cactus, rattlesnakes and extremely difficult terrain is going to draw more security risk than our ports, air travel, and our exposure to hacking of our utilities, travel and communications infrastructure?

    Seriously, you're just not thinking about the big picture.

    For reference:
    1.4 Billion metric tons shipped through our ports in 2017. http://aapa.files.cms-plus.com/Stat...EIGN TRADE 2017 BY U.S. CUSTOMS DISTRICT.xlsx

    International Air traffic: https://www.transportation.gov/site...er-and-freight-statistics-december-2017_0.pdf

    140.9 million air passengers from Europe, Central America and the Far East in 2017, representing 62% of all international passenger air traffic.

    11.3 million tons of international freight via air traffic.

    That's just commercial statistics. Doesn't include private travel. I'm not even sure how to quantify the risk of associated with hacking of our electricity distribution, gas distribution, possible nuclear power plants, air traffic control, traffic grids, cell phone systems, etc.
     
  17. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan GC Hall of Fame

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    The potato famine in Ireland is something that is unlikely happen today with better farming technology, understanding, and global food chain supply. But the desperation to escape starvation the Hondurans feel isn't different from what the Irish who left 170 years ago were feeling. Sad, but true.

    I also agree 100% that we need a better system to handle the foreign labor supply and demand. And this is nothing new. A bi-partisan committee called for one in 2007, and the bi-partisan Gang of Eight called for one back in 2013. Right size our labor supply with demand and let's see what effect this has on border security. I'm confident that if we enacted an expanded guest worker program, we'd see there was no need for a wall because those coming to work here would enter legally on the guest visa, and the number of illegal crossers would drop significantly.
     
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  18. OaktownGator

    OaktownGator Guardian of the GC Galaxy Moderator VIP Member

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    Agree.

    And matching work visas to labor demand has been an issue for a LONG time. It didn't start with this administration and I certainly wouldn't blame them for it. Both parties have played political ping pong with it.

    But this repeated inaccurate and insulting denigration of good hard working people is something that Trump and number of other Pubs need to be called to task on. Racism and xenophobia are not Making America Great Again... even if it does harken back to Trump's illustrious days of redlining blacks and Puerto Ricans in NY.
     
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  19. swgator88

    swgator88 Senior

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    It's not an either-or proposition. A country can build both a wall to secure a porous border and secure other ports of entry.

    You can obfuscate all you want, but your agenda is quite transparent.
     
  20. pkaib01

    pkaib01 Premium Member

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    Interesting article.

    Upon reflection, I think the article's conclusions are a bit suspect. He does not equate "winning" in poker to what Trump's objectives are nor the currency that Trump is risking. I think he's assuming that optimizing approval rating is Trump's goal.

    Some possible Trump objectives that come to mind are:

    a. re-election
    b. popularity (ego?)
    c. sadism
    d. effecting beneficial yet unpopular change (lol)
    e. win percentage
    f. avoid impeachment
    g. maximize graft