Discussion in 'Awesome Recruiting' started by candymanfromgc, Sep 22, 2023.
I agree. Unless they had our schedule next season.
Mom - I think you are missing something in your analysis. You say Norvell's players "aren't playing" which is inaccurate. A lot of Norvell's recruits are playing right now. Payton, Farmer, Lundy, Turner, Thomas, Hussey are examples on defense. On offense it is Douglas, Toafili, Orr, Douglas, Williams, and Hill. The thing is that these are not the big names on FSU's team but they do form the core of a program. The big names like Verse, Coleman, and Benson are not the type of high school recruits you are going to land coming from where FSU was when Norvell took over, so he had to land them through the portal. Norvell has used the portal to land pieces that had been missed in recruiting over the years. Going forward, I think this is going to be standard practice for most programs. They will go out and use the portal to fill in gaps on the rosters due to injury, non-development, or flat out misses in high school recruiting.
At this point, FSU has shed a lot of the players from the first couple classes Norvell signed and kept most of the kids they hit on and high school recruiting is now going well. The core of the team has come from players that Norvell or Taggert recruited from high school. I will say that FSU has greatly benefited from the extra COVID year that players have gotten from the NCAA. This has allowed them to keep players like Travis, Lovett, and some OL/DL around for an additional year. FSU's NIL collective also did a very good job of keeping some players that may have been a mid to late round draft picks on the roster with NIL money. There is a lot of young talent on FSU teams but you just do not see it unless you are watching late in games since as pointed out, the starters are mainly JR to Redshirt Seniors.
I'm basing this off the depth chart.
2023 Florida State Seminoles Football Depth Chart | Ourlads.com
9 starters on offense
5 starters on defense.
WR-X 14 Wilson, Johnny RS JR/TR
WR-Z 4 Coleman, Keon JR/TR
LG 70 Roddick, Casey RS SR/TR 75 Jones, Keiondre RS JR/TR
RG 71 Emmanuel, D'Mitri RS SR/TR 76 Washington, Darius RS JR
RT 63 Byers, Jeremiah RS JR/TR 58 Harris, Bless RS SR/TR
LTE 84 Morlock, Kyle RS JR/TR
RTE 6 Bell, Jaheim RS JR/TR
QB 13 Travis, Jordan RS SR/TR
RB-A 3 Benson, Trey RS JR/TR 26 Holmes, Caziah RS JR/TR
LDT 55 Fiske, Braden RS SR/TR
RDT 44 Farmer, Joshua RS SO 00 Lovett Sr., Fabien RS SR/TR
RDE 5 Verse, Jared RS JR/TR 19 Edmond, Gilber RS JR/TR
MLB 15 Bethune, Tatum RS SR/TR
LCB 23 Cypress II, Fentrell RS JR/TR
BUCK 38 Brown, Shyheim RS SO 27 Barker, Ashlynd RS FR/TR
NB 7 Jones, Jarrian RS SR/TR 21 Vance Jr., Greedy RS JR/TR
So help me out, what is the argument against Norvell for Travis? He was on the roster when Norvell took over. Didn’t recruit him out of high school but did develop him into a QB considered in the Hiesman race.
I think the argument of “transfer portal!” Is overblown. Recruits want to see a staff that has developed players in college and gotten them paid in the NFL. FSU and Norvell has shown an ability to do that. Do you think recruits really care if FSU’s staff did it through the portal or high school recruiting?
You seemed convinced to live through the portal.
A lot of these guys have already been developed. Keon Coleman, Jared verse etc are guys that garnered attention in the portal because they were good at their position. That's kinda the benefit of portal guys is you get to reap the rewards of getting in a guy who has already been developed, gone through a college s&c program, college schedule and speed of the game etc.
I would say that only Coleman was really already developed when he came to FSU. However, it is hard to say that about Travis, Wilson, Johnson, Benson, Lovett, etc. Most of the transfers Norvell and his staff have taken were not household names when they came to FSU. They had talent but needed to be developed through coaching and an S&C program.
I do not think most people understand where the FSU roster was in late ‘19 when Norvell took over. That was the last couple years of the Fisher regime. There were a lot of issues with some of the players in the locker room which is one of the reasons Jimbo left. Then the two years under Taggart where if he missed on Plan A recruits, there were no Plan B or C. Then just as Norvell started recruiting, COVID shut everything down for a year and a half. So Norvell’s staff could not recruit during that time and introduce themselves to coaching staffs and recruits and establish relationships that other staffs already had. All this means that they had to use the portal more since it was new and they may have already had some relationships with those players. That all helped bridge the gaps of Norvell’s first couple recruiting classes. If you look at who is playing along the OL/DL, about half of them are players Norvell or Taggart signed out of high school. Next year, it will be most of them.
The portal is not going anywhere and almost every program is going to be using it to fill gaps on their roster. FSU is likely going to have fewer gaps on their roster next year and the year after and will likely not sign as many players from it as they high school recruits are ready to play at the college level.
Both Benson (Oregon) and Wilson (Arizona State) were in a P5 college program for 2 season before they transferred and were 4 star players on 247 composite.
Lovette also spent 2 seasons at miss State before transferring but interestingly , his RS freshman year In 2019 while at MSU was better statically than this year. He's played 11 games both years(the most games he's played in a season)but in his freshman year.in the SEC he had more tackles, TFL's and sacks then he has through 11 games this year with FSU. So for Lovette, im not sure what FSU greatly improved on with his development. Seems he basically has had the same production where ever he's been
Travis , ill.give the credit to Norvell for the development. Surprisingly though he had a slightly better year last year statistically speaking that is than this year.
Either way, that's not a knock.on Norvell because thats supposed to be one of the benefits of getting transfers... they are presumably were already beeling developed, and already gotten a sample of the speed of the game at this level. IMO (in most cases) if you still need alot of development for a transfer might as well just go with a HS kid.
Lovett made double digit starts in the SEC and was productive
Benson was a 5 star RB that missed a season due to injury, but RB generally aren't "developed", they have it or don't
Bell, Vance, Verse, Coleman, Fiske, Morlock, K Jones, Bethune,Edmond, Cypress were all highly productive and experienced players before arriving at FSU. That's just portal players on this years roster. Certainly any player can and should continue to improve and develop.....but I would patently disagree that most of the transfers needed to be developed.
What had Benson or Wilson done at Oregon or ASU prior to transferring? The answer is not a lot. Benson had a bad injury and Mario did not take him to Miami with him. Wilson was known to have a hands issue as ASU. He has overcome it at DSU but still drops a pass every now and then that he should catch. I think your argument would be better with someone like Brandon Fisk or J. Bell as they are one year and done types but every teams is going to have those going forward.
FYI, Lovett has been hurt this year and the staff have been limiting his reps.
Travis did have a as good of a year that most FSU fans expected. It felt like he was trying to force too many balls to Coleman and Wilson and not taking what the defense gave him.
Speaking of transfers, saw that Ricky Pearsall, Johnny Wilson, and Jaydon Daniels were all on the roster at ASU at the same time. Not sure how Herm Edwards is still paid to talk about coaching.
Benson and Wilson just needed a chance to be the guy which is what they got transferring in as RS sophomores, already have been part of a S&C development program at a P5 school for 2 years. That's why they were able to just step right in as contributors. They didn't have to sit behind others at FSU while they continued their development. Norvell brought them here to start. That's not to say Norvell didn't teach them anything but let's be honest the portals advantage is being able to mostly skip the development stage and go directly to plug and play.
And I enjoyed seeing the interaction between Daniels and Pearsall, it shows the bonds this game forges with teammates even through eventual rivalry games
Lovett and Benson - see above. Agree on RBs having it or not but this S&C helped Benson come back from a bad injury and transform his body.
Verse needed to time in a P5 S&C program. Morlock needed to be in a TE friendly offensive scheme. Fiske, Bethune, and Cypress are the ones I would call true portal players where you get them for a year and then they hit the NFL. Once again, they were there to fill gaps in FSU recruiting over the last five years.
Please do not reminded me Greedy Vance is on this team.
I’m sorry but both Wilson and Benson were not thought of as “It” players that were sure fire hits. Wilson was considered a WR that could not catch and no one knew if Benson would come back from a really bad injury. These were considered risky takes at the time.
Verse was impact from day 1, that's not development. Morlock being in a different offense isn't development. Lovett wasn't developed, see above.
And you ignore Jaheim Bell, Greedy Vance, Tatum Bethune, Keoindre Jones, Gilber Edmond? All proven college players added to the roster
Also the LB Bethune was a 3 year contributer at UCF and had 185 tackles with a hunch of TFL's and sacks prior to coming to fsu
CB Fentress Cypress spent 4 years at Virginia, was a ACC All conference team and was rated the #2 transfer prospect.
RB Holmes spent 2 seasons at Penn State rushing for nearly 300 yards and a couple tds in 12 games.
An overwhelming amount of the transfers were already getting P5 playing time with varying amount of production while receiving development at a major college prior transferring to FSU
Again, Lovett has been hurt this year. Is your argument that Odell Huggins cannot develop Defensive Tackles?
Morlock being in a a TE friendly offense than can scheme to get him the ball is coaching.
Bethune, who I specifically mentioned, is a what he came to FSU as a fully developed LB, which FSU needed. He plays next to Deloach who was developed by this staff.
I also specifically mentioned Fiske, Bell, and Cypress as one year and done types. Every school is going to have them moving forward.
My position on Vance is also clear.
Here is Wilson's 247 scouting report, a consensus 4 star rated 92. note where they mention he's a natural pass catcher and smooth route runner. And is it really a big risk taking a 6'7 WR who was deemed a smooth route runner with natural catching ability?
"Wilson is one of the biggest receivers in the nation at 6-6, 220 pounds. There is some talk that he could bulk up in to a tight end in college. but he has a receiver skill set and runs well enough to stay at receiver. He’s a natural pass catcher who uses his size to box out smaller defensive backs and is close to impossible to stop in jump-ball and red-zone situations. His speed is deceptive, he has a better get-off then given credit for and has enough top-end speed to get behind a defense and make plays down the field. He’s an advanced and smooth route runner as well, and does a nice job setting up a corner and creating separation. He’s not super shifty with the ball in his hands and won’t make a ton of players miss after the catch, but because of his size and strength he will be able to get plenty of yards after contact. He should develop into a very reliable possession-type receiver and a go-to-guy on key third downs. Has enough speed to make plays in the deep passing game as well. Projects as an impact, upper-tier Power 5 starter and future high-round NFL draft pick.
I think it’s a chicken/egg scenario between results, getting top recruits, and getting top transfers.
And Benson was rated the #1 RB in the state of MS and was the 6th highest rated RB Oregon has ever signed so I'm sure they thought of him as the future "it" guy for them.