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Israel bars two congresswomen

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by rivergator, Aug 15, 2019.

  1. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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    I have a unique religious family history, 2 Protestants a catholic and a Jew among my grandparents...but am always sensitive to antisemitism. I don’t agree with much of what these women have said over the past year, but the attacks on them for saying things that are demonstrably true in many cases has been character assassination. There is a powerful Jewish lobby with deep pockets, Israel has acted terribly in some instances, the Palestinians do get the short end of the stick, and threatening a boycott on a place you don’t agree with is about the most American thing ever.
    But any criticism of Israel in this country is shouted down in this country in any way or form to make it stop, even if it destroys someone. It’s truly Un american.

    Not a Pelosi fan, but hope she threatens their funding, watch how quickly they face the reality that they aren’t the ones running the show.
    Watching us take it up the backside anytime Israel asks us to and then punishing them by giving them billions a year and putting ourselves out with the entire Arab world by supporting them or staying quiet on even their worst transgressions is beyond old, and sad.
     
  2. VAg8r1

    VAg8r1 GC Hall of Fame

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    By encouraging Israel to ban them Trump is giving Tlaib and Omar a much larger soapbox than they would have otherwise had. Of course Trump's real purpose was to use the two women to deflect from what should be the much larger story, the potentially failing state of the economy.
     
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  3. duchen

    duchen VIP Member

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    no you are not sensitive to antisemtism. The same people who are rightly upset at Trump for weakening the NATO alliance are all too willing to blame support for a reliable and stable ally in the Middle East on lobbying here. That is the criticism you levied in your post. The fiction that Israel has blocked a peace solution in the Middle East is another lie. In 1999, Israel agreed to a comprehensive plan for a Palestinian State with the Palestinian negotiators. It would have traded land within Israel and the Palestinian area so there was a contiguous Aran State. Arafat refused to sign it, claiming he would be killed by his people. Because the Palestinians don’t want it. It would dry up the money they get and they would have to run their own country. Clinton and Dennis Ross said they they were played for fools. Since then, there have been multiple intifadas. What did Israel get by withdrawing from Gaza? A terrorist state on its borders. Also, name the Middle Eastern country we would have better relations with if we stopped supporting Israel? Iran? Egypt? Saudi Arabia? Jordan? It is another false statement that support for Israel weakens the US in the Arab world.
     
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  4. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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    Thank you for making my point. Instead of simply pointing out where you think I was wrong, you made sure to bring antisemitism into the argument to try and delegitimize it.
    The US spends 6 times more per capita on Israeli foreign aid than on any other country in the world.
    The Israeli lobby spent 22 million last year, more than any other country in the world spent here other than Korea and Japan.
    Netanyahu’s polices hurt us internationally, cost us money and lives, we are running a trillion dollar deficit but find money to give them every year, and yet we have almost never been able to criticize him.

    It’s ok to talk about this stuff in political terms without it being anti Semitic, it’s no different than talking about our relationship with any country. And the fact that we can’t is why it continues.
     

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  5. duchen

    duchen VIP Member

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    I edited my post while you were responding. You are the one who referred to “taking it up the backside.” Pretty damn clear your perspective. And you brought up the powerful Jewish lonby, when AIPAC today opposes barring the Congresswomen. You don’t like Israel. Got it. You brought anti semitism into it. Not me. I just disagreed with you.
     
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  6. MaceoP

    MaceoP GC Hall of Fame

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    The reality of the situation is if the Palestinians and/or the Iranians could, they would annihilate every last Jew in Israel. Trump will be gone in either a year or 5 years and the dynamic over there IMO won’t change. Looking at it clearly Omar, Tilab & their friends absolutely despise the Jews, they just can’t say what they really think
     
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  7. uftaipan

    uftaipan GC Hall of Fame

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    I don't think Israel is remotely worried about that. Omar and Tlaib don't have street cred even within their own party when it comes to Israel. The Democrats who caucus for Israel think the two of them are a couple of clowns (on this issue at least) and will not break ranks over this. Just my opinion, though.
     
  8. Tjgators

    Tjgators Premium Member

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    and they are spewing the real hate. They appear to care much more about what goes on over there to what goes on over here.
     
  9. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    Somehow, I doubt you would be okay with this style of argument about Trump (you know what they really think even though they can't say so), would you?
     
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  10. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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    Actually I have never said we shouldn’t be allies with Israel, and I don't dislike them as a country. I do despise Netanyahu in the same way I do Trump, and I think the way the alliance is currently structured gives them all the benefits and us all of the burdens, which is where the backside reference comes from.
    As far as 99, I agree with you, Arafat was hung out to dry by all of his “allies” and backed out. But that doesn’t justify many of Israel’s actions.
    And to be clear, this thread was about Israel, but in no way do I think the Arabs are better. Their list of transgressions are endless, I just believe that a western aligned democracy needs to be the adult in the room. And slowly taking away what little land the Palestinians have one settlement at a time and then when the Palestinians and their allies fight back, leveraging it for even a tighter position, more settlements and more foreign aid isn’t it. Netanyahu is purposely keeping things destabilized to justify the need for his far right positions. Not sure how that isn’t clear to everyone. He is a much smarter version of Trump. Create or at least allow chaos, blame your foes, and then claim you are the one who understands it and can fix it. He is doing the same thing with Iran - they were contained, he helped talk trump into ditching the deal, now they are again a problem and Netanyahu has his next (old) enemy.
    Other than some marginal lip service in the Obama years he hasn’t even tried to make peace. Lots can change in 20 years. 20 years before the Good Friday accords it would have appeared impossible. But the money and support he gets from us with zero questioning of his actions means he doesn’t have to. We have a ton of power over them, and not only don’t use it, we are the subordinate of the 2. It’s bizarre.
     
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  11. MaceoP

    MaceoP GC Hall of Fame

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    Why are you concerned with my ‘style’ of argument. If you agree or disagree, feel free to say so
     
  12. CaptUSMCNole

    CaptUSMCNole GC Hall of Fame

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    Terrible PR strategy.
     
  13. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    Not really a stylistic point. More just the fact that you would certainly never accept that sort of argument from somebody about somebody you considered in-group.
     
  14. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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    Depends whether Pelosi decides to take a stand for the body, or allow a political irritant to twist in the wind and get taught a lesson.
    To be honest, it is Pelosi....
     
  15. MaceoP

    MaceoP GC Hall of Fame

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    You don’t know me. I didn’t make an argument about talib and Omar, I gave you how I see things - they hate Jews. I wouldn’t even attempt to persuade you of that as I know many see everything as a referendum on Trump.
     
  16. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    You declared that your viewpoint was "looking at it clearly." And making that sort of statement is making an argument.

    Would you accept it at face value as "looking at it clearly" if somebody declared Donald Trump a white supremacist based only upon their interpretation of what he must be thinking?
     
  17. MaceoP

    MaceoP GC Hall of Fame

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    Having followed this thread it’s very obvious that you added nothing to this thread since you never commented at all about the OP or anything about Talib and Omar, not anything else other than your rules of how I should post. I can understand it must be difficult to defend your 2 in-group people so deflect away
     
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  18. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    Actually, I did. I stated why your argument was fallacious and baseless. That is a contribution if you consider your own post to be on topic.
     
  19. uftaipan

    uftaipan GC Hall of Fame

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    You seem to think it would be a good idea for Pelosi to make common cause with those two (who, let’s face it, are not value-added to her) against one of our allies, even if they’re not a very good ally at times. I say, go right ahead. Watch how that plays out.
     
  20. Gator715

    Gator715 GC Hall of Fame

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    Netanyahu's rhetoric toward's Obama and the Iran deal is a**-kissing compared to what Omar has said about Israel...
     
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