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If the Astros are guilty of electronically stealing signs, what should their punishment be?

Discussion in 'Diamond Gators' started by Spurffelbow833, Nov 16, 2019.

  1. gatorfan5220

    gatorfan5220 Premium Member

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    74, I remember a Gator baseball player, around 1968, saying other teams knew our signals and Coach Fuller never bothered changing them.
     
  2. 74nole

    74nole GC Hall of Fame

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    5220—

    There are sooo many ways to change signs they are almost countless—

    Of course the most common is to merely change your indicator—some teams change signs every third inning—I’ve seen signs by your individual position used—signs are “on” if only given by designated hand (left or right)—Now these described here are only signs between dugout/third base coach/hitter.......

    Signs/location between pitchers and catchers is a whole other sequence—changes are made there equally as easily, it’s just up to the players to stay on the same page—

    Ol’school—if a baserunner on second base gets too full of himself relaying what he believes to be our signs then their hitter gets to deal with that consequence—from that point hitters become more focused on the pitcher that they are facing as opposed to their baserunner on second—

    But this is just me—;)
     
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  3. INGATORSWETRUST

    INGATORSWETRUST GC Hall of Fame

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    The odd thing is that this is far worse than what Pete Rose did. The Astros actually purposely cheated and violated baseball rules to change the outcome of games. Altuve’s batting average was so much higher at home than away, and you have to think it was because of their sign stealing system at home. Don’t understand why Pete is banished and a team cheating to win a World Series is not big deal. You strip the title IMO and the players should be suspended for a year
     
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  4. 74nole

    74nole GC Hall of Fame

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    Good point!
     
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  5. BillGator97

    BillGator97 Power Wheelchair Bowler VIP Member

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    I'm generally a pretty easy-going guy.

    This sign stealing scandal is infuriating to the baseball fan in me. (By the way, I am a fifth generation Chicago Cubs fan, and if you have ever watched Javy Baez swing at pitches 3 feet out of the strike zone, you KNOW he doesn't have the signs! And I love Javy – he's so much fun to watch).

    I've come to the belief that the ONLY fair thing to do is VACATE the 2017 World Series title.

    They gave the players "immunity" to get them to talk, so they cannot punish specific players. But aside from a few who claim to have not partaken, the entire team admits they collectively cheated. They collectively "won" the World Series.

    I agree that the 2017 Astros were talented enough to potentially win the World Series WITHOUT cheating. But we will never know. Because they cheated. They CHOSE to cheat. Even the ones who didn't, they benefited because their teammates did, and also they did not put a stop to it.

    So they cannot say "we shouldn't have to give the rings back, because you don't know that we wouldn't have won anyway."

    That's entirely true – BUT they don't get the benefit of that possibility BECAUSE they chose to cheat.

    It's disgusting.

    Vacate the damn title.

    Rob Manfred needs to grow a pair and vacate the damn title.

    Rant, over.

    Sorry. I don't normally say or write things like that, but wanted to express my thoughts as a longtime baseball fan.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
  6. shane4three

    shane4three GC Hall of Fame

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    more needs to done as far as Pendleton’s. Commish seems to not understand. The lack of penalties speaks volumes about this group.
     
  7. BSBLGATOR

    BSBLGATOR VIP Member

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    Just a question, does vacating the title change anyone's perception? I do not think it does and that is why I think they did not have to vacate. History will show them as the Champs but there will always be a "yeah but" next to that conversation. They penalized the franchise the highest fine allowed in the bargaining agreement and they took draft picks and pool money away. I think they sought out what the franchises role and the managers roles were. There have been lost jobs over this and managers who will probably never manage again along with GM who will probably never work in baseball again.

    I liken it to this, if cop finds out kids are drinking underage a house and they investigate and find out the parents supplied the liquor, who gets in the most trouble? The parents. I think this is similar in going after GM's and Managers who knew what was going on and did nothing to curtail it.
     
  8. WESGATORS

    WESGATORS Moderator VIP Member

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    It's kind of like how UCF creating their own title doesn't change anyone's perception.

    Go GATORS!
    ,WESGATORS
     
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  9. 74nole

    74nole GC Hall of Fame

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    Now WES—

    We all know if UCF had put in using triples while fighting/inventing their way to their National Championship you would be congratulating them rather than knocking them.....;)
     
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  10. dallasgatr

    dallasgatr GC Hall of Fame

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    Let’s not let facts get in the way. In 2017 Altuve hit .311 at home and .381 on the road. His OPS was .834 at home and 1.081 on the road.
     
  11. BSBLGATOR

    BSBLGATOR VIP Member

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    I understand what you are saying Dallas but the postseason splits are drastically different.
    Road – .143 BA, .497 OPS; Home – .472 BA, 1.541 OPS

    This is the whole list I found for postseason splits.

    Alex Bregman: Road – .154 BA, .508 OPS; Home – .273 BA, .857 OPS.
    Carlos Correa: Road – .211 BA, .626 OPS; Home – .371 BA, 1.164 OPS.
    Jose Altuve: Road – .143 BA, .497 OPS; Home – .472 BA, 1.541 OPS.
    Brian McCann: Road – .037 BA, .198 OPS; Home – .300 BA, .849 OPS.
    Evan Gattis: Road – .200 BA, .533 OPS; Home – .300 BA, 1.014 OPS.
     
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  12. jhfxof

    jhfxof GC Hall of Fame

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    My punishment would be 1 year ban(no pay) for entire 40 man roster and staff at time.. Play w/ minors leaguers next year.

    However,,and JMO.. If your signs are being stolen, no matter how, its bad signs. Should be able to advertise signs for everyone to see but only the intended for know what it means. If your flashing 1 for heater, 2 for bender w/ no one on base that's a you problem IMO.

    Again JMO,, but minimal difference than a runner at 2nd stealing & relaying to batter. Just don't get caught that way,, if did or suspected, you get earholed next AB...or use to...which leads to the real way this should be dealt with.. Let players police games as they have for 100 years.
     
  13. dallasgatr

    dallasgatr GC Hall of Fame

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    And by most accounts the trash can banging ended before the 2017 postseason. But more importantly Altuve was one of the few Astros who wanted no part of the scheme.

    This entire affair is overblown in my opinion. Since there have been signs used in baseball players and teams have attempted to steal said signs. In fact players have been championed as great sign stealers. The infamous “shot heard round the world” home run by Bobby Thomson in 1951 was purportedly a result of stolen signs. And the Astros were not the first team accused of using technology to help steal signs. Both the Red Sox and Yankees were chided by MLB in 2017 for using Video feeds and apple watches to relay stolen signs.

    The Astros have been spanked because they are not a sacred franchise and had a disgruntled ex-player turned rat. An easy whipping boy for a league looking to nip sign stealing using tech in the bud.
     
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  14. jhfxof

    jhfxof GC Hall of Fame

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    yeah vacating title is irrelevant, none other than Astro fan could tell you winner that year in 5 years regardless. not giving hardware back, so whats point.

    Why AU refused to accept 04 vacated title of SC,,whats the point unless a fanboy that wants a new shirt.
     
  15. MyakkaGator

    MyakkaGator GC Hall of Fame

    I look at it a little differently, I suppose..

    What's the ultimate goal of any baseball player? WIN The World Series!! What do they want the most? The TITLE and the RING... This was their prizes above all else to the point of blatant cheating in order to attain them.... So I say strip them of the title and the ring!!!!

    Baseball, for the most part, is a purists sport... People to this day remember the black Sox scandal.... And what do they remember the most about it?

    The consequences that team paid for their actions.

    You strip the Astros of their title and ring.. A century from now, baseball will remember this team it because of the consequences of their actions.
     
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  16. gtj31

    gtj31 GC Hall of Fame

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    As an Astros fan, I generally agree with you but it does have to be punished harshly. Baseball has an illustrious history of cheating. Corked bats, scuffed balls, spiked cleats, erasing batting boxes, bigger than legal gloves, and yes sign stealing.

    This was bad and the punishment is harsh. The GM was an excellent GM. Hinch was also a very good manager. His work with pitchers will be missed massively but his in game decisions were questionable, namely Game 7 last year.
     
  17. gatorheel

    gatorheel Premium Member

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    Turn off all electricity in Houston for a day.
     
  18. WESGATORS

    WESGATORS Moderator VIP Member

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    Some of the fault has to lie with the rules makers. How can you implement a rule without having an expressed consequence to the rule or without having the means to ensure that it is actively being enforced? Competitive sports by their nature (particularly at the professional level) involves folks doing whatever they can and accepting the risk of consequences for actions taken. With no expressed penalty for violating said rule, it's no wonder why this was attempted. Just my opinion.

    Go GATORS!
    ,WESGATORS
     
  19. jhfxof

    jhfxof GC Hall of Fame

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    Theres a rule, its just not written.. Just like the punishment. Do it, get caught & youll find out..lol
     
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  20. 74nole

    74nole GC Hall of Fame

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    Lol @jhfxof, just as we have been discussing umpires on another thread, I think the scenarios we see now with ol’blue’s EGO in play have just about done away with the unwritten rules of the game as we have always known them to be—it just doesn’t get that far —
     
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