ICE related shooting in Minneapolis

Nor have I.

This wouldn't be some "conspiracy". It would be closer to occam's razor, than a conspiracy.

I posted the idea thinking I was pointing out the obvious. The fact it was such a shocking idea to you should make you reflect.

 

A bit to unpack here (and thank you for reasonable discussion). Assumption/presumption are synonymous - they are literally synonyms, but we need not get lost in the weeds on that. You seem to deflect from the obstruction claim when moving to the "don't flee," argument. That's not an argument I engaged.

I firmly disagree with your statement: "it doesn't matter whether or not you have done something that warrants being arrested or not." This should never be the case in a free society.

I agree with your statement: "Quite simply, it seems appropriate to have a single person approach to ask about the situation and/or ask the person to move the vehicle."

If the report by others are accurate regarding conflicting commands from the agents, this exacerbates the problem that you have highlighted.

Like teachers, LEOs have obligations to society. One of the primary obligations is the safety of the people (or students in the education case). This case, IMO, was a failure of policing on many levels and they have a more rigorous obligation to society than the people do regarding what we might call "respect for authority." It's similar in education, where teachers have a more rigorous obligation to protect and teach students than the students have to comply/learn.

 

It's not a big deal. I'm only adding this so you can see the difference I am referring to:

Are 'Assume' and 'Presume' Synonyms? (presume carries with it less confidence)

I don't follow you. I'm not trying to deflect away from "obstruction" - that is one of my presumptions I would have for her based on observation, this comment follows with the one that you firmly disagree with...

Lol. I don't think you are hearing me on this one. I'm not saying it doesn't matter with respect to their behavior. I'm saying it doesn't matter with respect to your behavior. If you don't think you should be being arrested, you still have to keep your cool. Doing anything else will not help the situation. Do you disagree with that?

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

 

We have no idea why she stopped when and where she stopped. Perhaps she thought that where she stopped was a good position to legally observe? Again, maybe she thought she'd gone too far and was in the middle of a three-point turn, waiting until it was clear to complete it. Which is why she waved through traffic by. To assume you know her intent is bull. And now, we'll never know, because she is dead.

ICE Agents also have zero authority over local traffic laws. None. Zero. Zilch. If ICE thought she was impeding their duty, before acting, they would need to attempt to determine this for sure. It's called jurisdiction. And in this case, ICE has none, and there is no reason for them to attempt to pull her out of her car unless for sure, she's actively impeding ICE. How do the ICE Agents know her intent when all they are doing are screaming at her and giving her contradictory commands to leave while also telling her to get out of her car?!?

Agents should have never surrounded her vehicle. And no law enforcement officer should ever get in front of a car while it's running if it is avoidable. Purposely putting yourself in a life-threatening situation does not give LEO's license to use deadly force. There was absolutely zero reason for any ICE Officer to ever set foot in front of her car. None. It was completely avoidable.

Had the officers acted properly, instead of rushing, they could have waited and talked a strategy. She was not an imminent danger to anyone, and if all she was doing was impeding, then cautiously but calmly approach and ask her to move. And stay out of the way of the car by not standing directly in front or in back of it! Why is this so difficult to understand?

 

This is of course the opposite of human psychology for the most part. People caught dead to rights tend to be fairly subdued, while people who think they've done nothing wrong more defiant. Obviously that's not always true (some people who are caught arent going to go quietly), but if I know I've been speeding its "yes sir," if I know they have nothing on me, I feel a little more leeway to assert myself.

 

Please. Somebody please tell me this isn’t a serious post.
It feels like a Mr Rogers post for me and lacks any serious consideration.

 

Weird that @AzCatFan and the gang aren’t writing 3 page essays in defense now…
Hmmm.

 

Wow, the same guy who shot Good has a history of people trying to use their vehicle as a deadly weapon.
So he had reason to suspect a person might harm him with a vehicle.
Jonathan Ross family: First details on ICE agent's father emerge after Renee Good shooting

 

So you waited literally 2 minutes after his post to say that there are no 3 page essays yet? Lol

 

The stupid ICE agent could have let her leave, jot down her license plate number, then go to her home for action. Shooting an unarmed woman who was trying to leave is horrific and seeing some of the magas here justifying this action is disgusting.

 

If's a serious post. ICE either needs a search warrant or probable cause to pull someone out of their vehicle. How can ICE establish probable cause when they are screaming contradictory instructions to this woman to both go/leave and get out of her car?

While there is no definitive SCOTUS ruling, the latest on Officer Created Jeopardy, the courts must consider the totality of the officers' actions to establish if use of force is legal or not. In other words, if the officer put himself in danger by unnecessarily walking in front of an idling car, that would be officer created jeopardy, and use of deadly force would not be Constitutional. Tell me again, what reason did the ICE Officer have for being in front of the car?

All of the chaos was avoidable. There was no reason to yell conflicting demands at the woman. No reason to charge her car, and no reason to attempt to illegally remove her from the vehicle. First, establish why she was where she was exactly and ask her to move. And by all means, stay out of the path of the car! No reason for an officer to put himself in danger like that.

 

100%. Two things are abundantly clear from the video:

1. The statements about the incident by DHS/Noem/Trump are exaggerations if not outright lies
2. The officer had the ability to, and did, step out of the way of the vehicle. His life was not in danger and she didn't pose a danger to others.

They easily could have tracked her down and overcharged her with things like attempted murder. She would have been acquitted of the most serious charges and been found guilty on lesser charges.

If that officer felt he had no other option other than shooting to kill then he's not properly trained and shouldn't be in law enforcement.

This isn't to say the woman is completely innocent or blameless, but there's no basis for defending her being shot in the face from the side of the vehicle. This really isn't even a close call and it's sad to see so many people who feel like this a defend their side type situation.

 

lol good point!
I wasn’t holding my breath though.

 

That's definitely a guy who needs to get booted from the country. No sarcasm. Get him the hell out of here.

 

Just watched the video. Attached above.

 

Just as an FYI, New York has had this document out for 5 years on how to handle confrontations with ICE...

https://www.immigrantdefenseproject.org/wp-content/uploads/IDP_car_stops-FINAL-2.pdf

I just thought it was interesting. I'd like to see the local police department and sheriff's office make a public statement about how well (or not well) the ICE agents handled themselves. I think it's important to call out the wrong doers otherwise you are likely to be lumped in with them (and apparently MPD has taken some heat for this).

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

 

ouch