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How messed up is our healthcare system?

Discussion in 'GatorNana's Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by oragator1, Feb 17, 2020.

  1. gatorknights

    gatorknights GC Hall of Fame

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    It would be nice if more people would pull their heads out, wake up, and stop tolerating if not promote this stuff. Let the market support truths not lies.

    Oh what was I thinking...:confused:
     
  2. tilly

    tilly Superhero Mod. Fast witted. Bulletproof posts. Moderator VIP Member

    My point is, around here, you are preaching to the choir. No one is surprised there was/is shady stuff going on.
    Some of us just don't feel that sorry for people who fail to do their own homework in a world where we should all know better by now.
     
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  3. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    As I have stated on here many times: the issue is that the free market is functioning as intended in the markets driving up costs. The value of a product is set by how much value it can achieve compared to an outside option. If you have a monopolist drug or local hospital system, or are essentially a captive customer due to your medical condition at the time, the only outside option is death. How much would you pay to avoid your own death? How much would your close family authorize to avoid that? For most of us, that number is at least in the millions.

    Now, competition can lower the price of the service as well. The problem is that I described a situation with no competition. Many drugs keeping you alive with rare conditions have zero competition. Local areas often have 1-2 hospital systems due to the massive fixed costs of running hospitals. Many medical conditions require immediate care that prevents patient transfer. So the surplus goes to the provider/pharmaceutical company, almost entirely. And given the value of these procedures, that is a huge number.
     
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  4. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan GC Hall of Fame

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    The other issue is elasticity. If you need open heart surgery to live, the fact that costs often run into six digits doesn't factor in your decision to have the surgery. Either you get the service, or you die. It's not like a luxury car that costs $100,000. People can live without one, and most of us do. And there are plenty of cheaper options, from a used car for 1/25 of the cost, to public transportation, that's even cheaper. And all options will perform the same basic function as the luxury car, which is get you from point A to point B. What other options do you have if you need open heart surgery?

    All this debate about healthcare and nobody, from either side, really has any answers. All I know is that per capita, we already pay more than another other country.

    [​IMG]

    And it's significant. There has to be a more, efficient way.
     
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  5. channingcrowderhungry

    channingcrowderhungry Premium Member

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    Healthcare in Chile: an overview for expats moving to Chile

    These types of things can be easily researched online
     
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  6. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    Chile's system is very similar to Medicare. You pay some out-of-pocket and the remainder is paid by the government program. It is about 80-90% paid by the government program, depending on income level.
     
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  7. channingcrowderhungry

    channingcrowderhungry Premium Member

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    That's fine. We can question the numbers. But claiming it's going to bankrupt the United States is pure drivel
     
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  8. LouisvilleGator

    LouisvilleGator GC Hall of Fame

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    You think that is going to get any better if we pass UHC? You're right, we have a lot of people who abuse the system and in a lot of different ways. Going to the doctor when they don't need to, smoking, drinking, overeating and on and on and on. Most states already have programs that pay for the unprivileged's health care needs and then medicaid.
     
  9. gatorknights

    gatorknights GC Hall of Fame

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    Apparently too many people think that trained, licensed, experienced "professionals" have no personal responsibility but first timers borrowers do. Talk about an exploitable market. A scene from Scarface comes to mind.

    How many decades have we spent in the mortgage biz? What was the degree in? How many files have we audited and analyzed? How many breaths of air have we so much taken in a RE/mortgage/appraisal/tile agent classroom? Let alone experienced in the "real world"?

    Believe or not people, we as Gators can handle ourselves as we are way above average. That being said, not everyone can measure up to Gator standards and are easily stolen from. Just because we can make intelligent and educated decisions doesn't mean that others can. Take F$U grads for example (gratuitous F$U joke :D).

    I am in no way excusing those borrowers who were able to get over. I am also in no way saying that all and every RE professionals are thieves. But I am saying that history has proven, as well is me and dozens of thousands across the nation have personally experienced that there are enough ENOUGH thieves, that it presents a clear and present danger. If people reject that, it only furthers the probability if not the certainty that more of our neighbors will get exploited and ripped off on their real estate transactions. That adversly affects markets whether the general public sees it or not.
     
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  10. gatorpa

    gatorpa GC Hall of Fame

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    As always devil is in the details. I'll take look.

    My first question would be how would they account for providers opting out of enrolling in it, second what costs would be associated for providers in the system.
     
  11. channingcrowderhungry

    channingcrowderhungry Premium Member

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    Certainly a fair point. I will readily admit to seeing the headline a few days ago and simply reading the single page synopsis provided.

    My point was in response to the poster saying universal healthcare will bankrupt the US. Somehow, every other country managed to pull it off without bankruptcy, but the US, with its massive economy and incredible exceptionalism, is doomed.
     
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  12. gatorpa

    gatorpa GC Hall of Fame

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    My family health ins is $2400/month that's far more than 6% and I'm over 200 K. That doesn't include the deductibles and other numerous charges. Not sure where you got those number from.

    When I say people think its free it because they don't understand in Europe they all are taxed out the ass. But they may not pay anything when they got to the doctor or hospital. So it's "free".
     
  13. gatorpa

    gatorpa GC Hall of Fame

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    I tried to read it but only the first page is accessible, I did note this on the side...
    1. Budgetary projections for single-payer universal health care
    2. Reduced fees for hospital and clinical services
    3. Unified system for billing and administration
    4. Pharmaceutical price negotiation
    5. Expansion of coverage and services
    6. The bottom line of Medicare for All
    7. Restructuring health-care expenditure by employers, individuals, and as a country
    8. The life-saving potential of Medicare for All
    9. Synergies between health and prosperity
    10. Improving the continuity of health care

    BIG CHANGES to get that done.

    Love to know the cost to a universal EMR/Billing system nation wide.


    Something certainly needs to be done, but I don't know how you re do the entire system without massive effects.

    How many ins companies will vanish?
    All the different EMR systems (those companies go poof)
    How many small hospitals will close because they have small margins and cuts to fees push them over the edge.
    The list goes on and on.
     
  14. gatorpa

    gatorpa GC Hall of Fame

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    After almost 20 years working in the ER I agree....
     
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  15. RealGatorFan

    RealGatorFan Premium Member

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    And that's where the issue lies. Single-payer won't fix our healthcare system; in fact, will bankrupt the country in 5 years of its inception. There are dozens of insurance policy types, from high-deductible plans, to HSAs, to PPOs, to everything in between. The differences are premium costs - people see premiums first and go with the low premium. Problem is they don't look further than that until they use it and find out they first have meet a deductible. I learned decades ago how to pick the right plan. Young singles go after the HSA- high deductible plans because the premiums are low and the chance they need to use it is very low. Older singles then swap over to something with higher premiums but with more perks like co-pays. For families, it all depends. I have a gold plan because our 16yr old is driving and he plays football. Once he graduates, I'll take another look but my wife and I will be 60 by then. Probably will stick with the same plan until we hit 65.

    So what am I getting at? To have single-payer, we need that one plan that fits everyone and is cheap. But, unless the government takes over price controls - mandates that all costs are managed by the US government, the system will fall apart. For single-payer to work, the US has no choice but nationalize the entire healthcare industry. Then that $28K gall bladder surgery only pays $3k to the hospital. MRIs would become $100, CT scans $100, etc.

    As for appointments, if I called my personal care physician today, I can get in tomorrow or Thursday. Sometimes longer if the flu is peaking. It all depends on why I need to see him. Since ACA, he took on almost twice the number of patients to help offset his almost 200% increase in costs.
     
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  16. gatorpa

    gatorpa GC Hall of Fame

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    IF the employer no longer helped pay the ins premiums they most likely would give their staff more money... But would the employee notice it? Obviously they would be paying more in taxes..

    If they added it to FICA then it still would partially be an employer expense.

    Most employees don't know the employer pays half their FICA taxes....
     
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  17. gatorpa

    gatorpa GC Hall of Fame

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    I do the same thing, when the kids were little went with the high deductible plan. Rarely took to the Doctor, treated most stuff myself. Now with one driving, one in football and my wife and I getting older higher priced plan, lower deductible. All in the numbers. Don't pick a cheap plan to save 5k a year to get a 15k deductible.
     
  18. Gator515151

    Gator515151 GC Hall of Fame

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    I'll be the first to say our healthcare system is broken but universal healthcare isn't the answer. Why not government kitchens, government clothing, government housing, government transportation. Why don't we just become a communist country? All men are created equal so why don't we all get the same stuff? We could become one giant ant colony.
     
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  19. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan GC Hall of Fame

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    Balance is the key. Some socialism is actually beneficial. Unless you don't think we are all entitled to the same police and fire protection? They are, after all, government provided. Want more? You are free to hire your own, private security. But if someone needs the police, their ability to pay is not, and should not be a factor in whether or not someone answers and responds to the 911 call.

    I believe healthcare, or at least the very basics, should be the same way. Basic care should be paid for. Want extra? Go ahead and pay for it. And oh, if you are having trouble feeding yourself and/or your dependants? We will help you pay for food with foodstamps.
     
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  20. mutz87

    mutz87 #nowaytospinit VIP Member

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    I believe as a retired public worker your government employer provide a healthcare plan for you, right? If so, you know what, China came to your house. ;)
     
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