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Gay couple charged with molesting their sons and pimping them out to pedophile ring

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by gatormonk, Jan 21, 2023.

  1. mrhansduck

    mrhansduck GC Hall of Fame

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    As I understand it, the word pedophile is assigned to adults (sometimes even older minors 16 and up) . . . who are attracted to prepubescent children. I've never seen a definition which would apply to middle school kids having crushes on kids their own age.
     
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  2. mrhansduck

    mrhansduck GC Hall of Fame

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    Respectfully, I don't think it's fair to accuse me of hiding behind definitions when you're changing the meaning of words to make arguments. Also, I don't think the concept of consent is arbitrary - or at least not more so than your reliance on ancient scripture. How far would you go in applying Biblical norms to today's society in terms of ethics? Would there be any limit, and how would you draw that line if at all? And how should your views of those Biblical ethics influence our secular laws? I take it you believe that masturbation is evil. Or, having sexual desire toward anyone other than one's heterosexual spouse. But I doubt you would treat masturbation, general lust, or even pre-marital sex the same as you would treat child sex abuse in terms of our criminal laws.

    To be clear, I don't dispute that the precise age at which we deem the age of consent to be satisfied is somewhat arbitrary. It's 18 in Florida and 16 in Alabama. Is one state right and the other wrong? Also, not all young people develop at the same age, whether physically, emotionally, or cognitively. But I think those are different issues than consent as a concept. Many of our ethical and legal rules involve line drawing. We could make the speed limit 49 mph, 77 mph or something else, but not many people would argue that we shouldn't have a speed limit because any specific number on which we decide will be somewhat arbitrary.

    Our concepts of informed consent and mutual agreement are not unique to sexual conduct. We often consider and require consent when more than one party is affected and harm may result. With respect to the formation of contracts, we may evaluate whether a signatory has capacity, whether a party was coerced, whether there was consideration, etc. Whether it is ethical (or legal) for me to enter your home depends on whether you have given me permission. If you did not consent to my entry, we consider that both immoral and illegal. These concepts are not unique to Christianity.
     
  3. mrhansduck

    mrhansduck GC Hall of Fame

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    Were/Are there clear Christian standards for what husbands and wives were/are morally permitted to do with eachother in their monogamous marriage? Some Christians believe that sex should always at least not close the door to potential procreation. Some approve of and some disapprove of pharmaceutical contraception or condoms. Some have used a rhythm method. Some might oppose the use of sex toys even if used as a couple. I've read some Christians posit that oral sex is okay or even good but that anal sex should be discouraged. Even with oral sex, is that only permissible until right before the point of climax?

    I'm not sure how many of these strict rules are clearly laid out in the Bible, but there certainly seem to be a lot of takes on them. If there are clear strict rules, perhaps many - if not most - married couples are violating the rules? Are sexual sins between a husband and wife considered the same level of sin as homosexual sex, adultery, rape, or bestiality? Or is there a continuum of wrongness?
     
  4. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    No. But that has little to do with what we are discussing, since marriage in those days were generally between older men and younger women not between two people of the same age.

    Jewish Marriage in Antiquity – Bryn Mawr Classical Review.

    They weren't marrying 13 year old girls to 13 year old boys. They were doing it to men in their 20s or even 30s.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2023
  5. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    None that I am aware of. But that is an explicit call to moral relativism (it was okay because society previously said it was okay). And it doesn't dispute my point, that societies used to be far kinder to pedophilia than it is now, not even labeling it as such even though a fully grown man being married and impregnating a young teenage girl certainly is that.
     
  6. Gator715

    Gator715 GC Hall of Fame

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    Yes. Though I'm sure what is permissible probably varies from Christian faith to Christian faith.

    By our human and social standards, when based upon Biblical standards, more often than not yes there is a continuum of wrongness. However, in the eyes of God, the way I understand it is the murderer and the everyday sinner are so far from perfect not much separates them relative to the perfection that is God. That's why the only path to salvation in the eyes of Christians is through Christ. No matter how hard you try to be perfect, it's impossible to meet that standard where we're ever truly worthy of salvation. Jesus, the only perfect being to ever walk this Earth, paid all of our debts for us. All we need to do is try our best and accept him.
     
  7. gaterzfan

    gaterzfan All American

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    You are wrong. Pefophilia is wrong today. However, an older man marrying a 13 year old in the Middle East in 1 BCE may not have been considered to be pedophilia. Customs, moral principles, social structures were much different in places like Greece, Babylonia, etc. Heck, life expectancies were much different and many cultures saw young brides and mothers as normal. It is not normal, today.

     
  8. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    You said I am wrong and then said exactly what I said. That you are engaged in moral relativism (it is wrong now, but not in the past because society decides it was wrong now but not in the past) and that pedophilia was an accepted practice in biblical morality but not under modern morality that bases off of individual consent. So purely biblical morality is more okay with the practice than modern morality.
     
  9. gaterzfan

    gaterzfan All American

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    You are still wrong, applying a modern legal and sexual precept to societal norms and behaviors from 2000 years ago.

    Try applying modern rules/laws of alcohol consumption to what was acceptable 2000 years ago.

     
  10. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    What exactly am I wrong about? I am saying that biblical morality is more okay with 30 year old dudes having sex with 13 year old girls. Because it was. I am pointing out that there is a difference and then you are telling me that I am wrong and that there was a difference. Very confusing.

    But I do find it funny that so many people are now advocating for moral relativism. Especially given that plank would completely reject that notion in a context like gay people.

    Not sure your point here, but if they differ, then it is evidence of differing.
     
  11. gatorplank

    gatorplank GC Hall of Fame

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    OK, I think ancient Jewish culture would agree with that definition, and they would consider what you have described to be sinful. Jewish culture viewed puberty as the age where a person became an adult and became marriageable based on everything I have read.
     
  12. l_boy

    l_boy 5500

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    Moral relativism is normal. Circumstances change when society changes. In 1000 years, assuming humans survive, they will probably look back on people of our time and be horrified at humans eating meat, killing each other, the way we treat animals, and perhaps even abortion. Who knows. It could be at that time it is easier to make better choices.

    When you consider centuries ago most people lived rural lives, people lived much shorter lives, the availability of partners was less, women were generally viewed as subservient to men, and some girls at 13 are at reproductive age, it isn’t exactly shocking that it was accepted.
     
  13. mrhansduck

    mrhansduck GC Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, I think puberty is the line where it's deemed more psychologically normal/natural for an adult to find a young person physically attractive. That does not mean that post-pubescent young people have the cognitive or emotional capacity to provide informed consent for sex, but that's a separate issue and why attraction is different than action. I do think people throw around the word pedophile too often where it doesn't apply. I would submit that almost all straight men under the age of 80 thought Anna Kournikova was hot when she was 17 even if they would be scared or ashamed to admit it out loud.
     
  14. Gator715

    Gator715 GC Hall of Fame

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    [​IMG]
     
  15. mrhansduck

    mrhansduck GC Hall of Fame

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    Haha, I figured that was coming. I stand by my comment though. Just go to game day and observe all the middle aged and even older guys gawking at the incoming freshman girls who are 17 or 18. I bet most would publicly deny it, but we could probably image their brains and prove they're either lying or totally not self aware.
     
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  16. lacuna

    lacuna The Conscience of Too Hot Moderator VIP Member

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    But normal.
    Scientific studies have concluded that women, generally between the ages of 16 and 23, are at the apex of their fertility and fecundity and produce the healthiest descendants.

    It's been purported, and various studies have shown, that at least 80% of adult males are ephebophiles, whether they acknowledge it or not. The Internalization of Social Stigma Among Minor-Attracted Persons: Implications for Treatment


    Urban Dictionary: Ephebophilia
    Ephebophilia

    A sexual attraction towards young men or women who are in the later stages of adolescent maturity and early adulthood. ...

    "The state of an innate sexual arousal (or urge) in homo sapiens to pass along their genetic information, and with optimal proficiency, to produce the healthiest offspring that can repeat the process of evolutionary life cycles as guided by natural selection.

    "Scientific studies have concluded that women, generally between the ages of 16 and 23, are at the apex of their fertility and fecundity and produce the healthiest descendants.

    "It's been purported, and various studies have shown, that at least 80% of adult males are ephebophiles, whether they acknowledge it or not.

    ___________________________________________________


    SEX OFFENSE: Hebephilia – Arizona Forensics, LLC

    SEX OFFENSE: Hebephilia

    Pedophilia vs Hebephilia

    Pedophilia” refers to sexual attraction to pre-pubescent children. “Hebephilia” refers to sexual attraction to post-pubescent minors age 11-14 . “Ephebephilia” is sexual interest to those in later adolescence, approximately 15–19 years old. There are strong and consistent findings in the research literature that reveal:

    1. Attraction to post-pubescent adolescents is normal for healthy adult males. It is a matter of biology. The “primitive brain” (mesolimbic system) in a healthy male identifies primary and secondary body characteristics in a pubescent female that signal she is capable of bearing children. The primitive brain has no sense of morality – it is pure primitive instinct. It is the job of the “thinking brain” (neocortex) to interrupt primitive impulse. Everyone experiences “inhibitory struggle” on a regular basis – whether to eat the extra donut, sleep past the alarm clock, drink too much at the bar after work, etc. This contrasting tension between our “two brains” is the basis for civilized behavior in civilized society.
    2. The distinction of pedophilia vs hebephilia has important implications for recovery and future risk. Pedophilia is a biologically abnormal impulse that can involve significant defect in personality and psychological health. In contrast, hebephilic actions involve “normal” impulse that are not successfully inhibited by the neocortex. These actions do not require defect in personality or psychological functioning. Notice that the DSM-5 has a diagnostic category for pedophilia but does not identify hebephilia as a mental disorder.
    3. Research reveals someone struggling with hebephilia is more responsive to treatment as compared to a pedophile. With proper treatment, someone with hebephilia also has a better prognosis against future relapse.
     
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  17. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

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    And countless others - The Top 18 Creepiest Rock Songs About Young Girls, Ranked
    Top 10 Jailbait Songs

    But obviously this attraction to underage partners was invented by woke gays in the last 20 years
     
  18. mrhansduck

    mrhansduck GC Hall of Fame

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    That's interesting and consistent with what I've read before about men.

    The data is probably out there, but I don't recall seeing numbers for the percentage of adult women who find younger males attractive within given age ranges. There may be evolutionary and/or social reasons why the results might be different for that combination. What I just looked up suggests that peak male fertility might be between the early 20's to mid 30's. That may be a subconscious factor for women. Of course, there seem to be quite a few women teachers caught having sex with their teenage male students, but I'm not sure how prevalent that attraction is or isn't. Most women I've heard talk about it at least seem to indicate that they aren't attracted to guys significantly younger than they are, but I suspect many may not want to admit it the way that many men don't want to admit it.

    I did find it fascinating that so many women of various age ranges seemed to find Sean Connery at least if not more attractive the older he got - even into his 70's and 80's. Like I was confused whether they just found him charming at age 85 or whether they actually wanted to have sex with him. No, you don't have to answer that!
     
  19. wgbgator

    wgbgator Premium Member

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    The flip side of this is there is child sexuality too, children learn pretty young that the body and certain pleasures are connected, usually its just things like pooping gives you a certain "release" and makes you feel good. This is part of how you learn to want to do those type of things, of course this seems to tie into various fetishes or kinks people have later in life involving bodily functions. Whatever the case, I think we can accept that adults may find teens "attractive" while even young children arent entirely sexless until puberty without enabling pedophilia. If anything, I think knowing all this people are now even more hyperaware of large age gaps in adult relationships too, and look down on them more than even like 10 years ago. These days a lot of people think 45 year old Leo DiCaprio dating a 24 year old model is gross.
     
  20. mrhansduck

    mrhansduck GC Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, I don't think I'm unique and I had a crush on my babysitter and recall trying to impress her when I was very young - before I understood anything about sex. I didn't want to do anything and wouldn't have known what to do if I did, but I knew I liked her, lol.

    With respect to age gaps, you're exactly right. It's partly about balance of power and it's a fair discussion to have when there's an employment or business relationship, etc. But I haven't been able to buy into the condemnation generally. I think almost none of the people calling DiCaprio gross or predatory would care one bit if Madonna is shagging guys in their 20's.