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For those defending White on offense

Discussion in 'Nuttin' but Net' started by hatter18, Jan 7, 2019.

  1. cincinnatigator

    cincinnatigator GC Hall of Fame

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    In the opening few minutes he hit a step back 3 which should've put a spark in him like it does most shooters, but then it's almost like he was content with that one make that he went the next 12 minutes without taking a single shot. During those 12 minutes we had a comfortable lead, but shot 7-20 and had 6 turnovers. He had the chance to blow the game wide open and put it to rest before halftime. The urgency in Allen is completely lost when we're up, and that goes for most of the team as well. He'd rather not be the one to blame for a loss. The most urgency I've seen this team play with was when we were down 6-10 points against Michigan State. It's just a matter of consistency.
    Coming out of the half, they must've told him to shoot more since he took his first attempt 8 seconds into the game. But then he didn't attempt a single shot for the rest of the game. That is inexcusable both by Allen and White.
     
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  2. diamondted13

    diamondted13 GC Hall of Fame

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    Don't disagree at all about KA but no mention in his press conference about Stone & Hayes disappearing act on Saturday? If not, seems odd to only single KA out. Granted, KA is more talented than the other two.
     
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  3. madgator

    madgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Analytics is a guide and not the ultimate decision maker. A good coach should be able to factor both the analytics and the individual feel within the moment. I believe that a team typically becomes a reflection of where/who the coach is. With that in mind, this video might be very revealing of why certain players on our team seem to be off in their game because they are over-thinking rather than reacting; Allen and Hudson are two that jump out to me immediately in this regard.

    Studying is for film room, game planning and practice. The game is a like a test of your knowledge and preparation. You don't "study" during a game just like you can't during a test.

    If you're not prepared, you lose. At the end of the day, basketball is still a read and react game. Preparation essentially speeds the reaction time to give your guys an advantage.
     
  4. GatorChoice

    GatorChoice GC Hall of Fame

    Hayes only played 9 minutes due to fouls and Stone is just about a lost cause for me. I can't figure out his lack of effort.
     
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  5. akaGatorhoops

    akaGatorhoops VIP Member GC Columnist

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    He was responding to a direct question about KA.
     
  6. cincinnatigator

    cincinnatigator GC Hall of Fame

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    Looks like Stokes is ready to overtake them for minutes now. He showed a pretty touch going bank on that one jumper. Very rare to see in a guy that size. Not quite strong enough yet to bully premier post players on the block but he at least thinks he can.
     
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  7. wci347

    wci347 GC Hall of Fame

    We have to learn to not mingle likable people with business decisions. MW is an amazingly likable guy and has acquitted himself from a recruiting standpoint.

    When you have players going into what amounts to season long
    slumps, and you have no remedy or counter strategy for it, you get exposed.

    It is the coach’s job to figure out how to get players going again. The staff failed with Allen last year and now they are failing with Hudson.

    What the staff is doing to Okauru is a disaster. There is no reason for his minutes to be this diminished when you have Stone, Hudson and Allen putting up such pedestrian numbers across the board.

    To lose to a shell shocked team like USCE with their best playing riding the bench for almost an entire half was borderline inexcusable.

    Four years into White’s tenure we are a worse 3 point (perimeter) shooting team than we were before he got here and we have yet to establish any post presence at all.

    Recruiting has gone up but it is not of the level to compete in the league. His obsessision with recruiting swingmen (6’5”-6’7”) has subjected our program to perpetual handicap when it comes to scoring in the paint and getting key rebounds when it matters.

    The next recruiting class is outstanding but once again lacks that immediately ready big who will come in and consistently double double the league.
     
  8. akaGatorhoops

    akaGatorhoops VIP Member GC Columnist

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    There are people whose minds were made up regarding White before he even arrived. Most initially railed that he would not be able to recruit at this level….And used the first two classes as validation. They were forced to recognize a coaching ability after improving results in his first season, and making the elite eight in his second. Now, with a team lacking leadership— a reality partially resulting from those first two classes— those posters switch their mantra to “he can recruit, But can’t coach”. I think he has shown ... at different times ... the ability to do both.
    He is coaching a flawed roster right now - one almost entirely lacking leadership and production from its seniors; and one not able to offset that with other upperrclassen due to the failings/injuries of those first recruiting cycles.
    Think of the personnel of those classes... Bassett, Hester, Gak, Stokes, Johnson, Ballard, Okauru.
    Two are gone from the program. FOUR endured injury that sidelined for AT LEAST A YEAR. And one was a very late fill-in for Shia leaving us at the alter. The ONLY intended target from those classes who remained healthy is Ballard— and he is increasingly becoming a nice player.
    But there is NO REASONABLE WAY to look at the attrition of those classes and not expect an impact- which is now, when we would be relying upon them as upper class leaders. Instead, they are gone, rehabbing or stepping onto the floor for the first time.
    Also, I very much disagree that he is not now recruiting at a level capable of competing in the league. In fact, I think it will compete nationally next season.
    As for what next year’s class is missing — let’s talk in June or so.

    I agree regarding Okauru - but his minutes are being taken moreso by Nembhard and Locke. AN has been very diifcult to take off the floor at pg, and Locke is justifiably getting big minutes in the backcourt. Allen’s defensive efforts are sometimes overlooked, but I do think his minutes should be drastically cut if he continues to ignore white’s pleas for assertive offense. The player I think is being really underused is Ballard.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
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  9. wci347

    wci347 GC Hall of Fame

    There are currently 11 active scholarship players on the roster injury free.

    A palpable argument could be made that Nembhard, Locke, Johnson, and Ballard are living up to or exceeding expectations. Okauru due to lack of time isn’t being afforded an opportunity to live up to expectations.

    That leaves 6 healthy scholarship players who are not living up to expectations.

    Allen, Stone and Hayes are not his recruits. Hudson. Stokes and Bassett were recruited here by MW.

    No one on his roster taller than 6’7” is in the top 15 in the SEC in scoring or rebounding let alone below 6’7”.

    If you cannot see a glaring problem here shame on you!
     
  10. gatorbogey

    gatorbogey Premium Member

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    I would agree “in the game”....but during time-outs, I think you can take the time to review some analytics, if need be.

    But: I’m more familiar with what goes into a football gameplan, not a basketball one. In a way, I’m surprised to see coaches looking at data or a game day cheat sheet like that.

    If me: I would have several sets drawn up for a variety of situations vs different possible defenses. And I would need to refer to them in critical situations...
     
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  11. grovegator83

    grovegator83 Recruit

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    Another point is this is being taken as the example of all huddles White leads. I don't know if this is a one off or every huddle.

    Silly thought but I still remember an old LSU game when Dale Brown was coach. Obviously he loved being miced up for games. Final possession and he spends the whole time setting up a play for John Williams. Last words to the team was "who is taking the last shot?" They all answer John.....the result of the "play" was a free throw line fade away by non shooter Jose ( I think) Vargas.
     
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  12. akaGatorhoops

    akaGatorhoops VIP Member GC Columnist

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    Stokes is only now healthy ... for the first time in his collegiate career. Bassett is healthy now- playing his first full season after an on-going foot injury... one that threatened to end his playing career.
    Gak is injured AGAIN.
    Chase was injured AGAIN and is gone.


    To suggest that because a couple guys are healthy that they should seamlessly slide into SEC level hoops, is silly.
    To ignore how injury decimated the front court has been is just unfair.

    To say that “no one over 6’7 is in the top 15”, only validates my point.
    The players who would qualify are Hayes, Stone, Gak, Stokes, Bassett, C. Johnson.

    Name one.... ONE... on that list who is a Mike White recruit that hasn’t endured a year+ long injury/rehab.

    I’ll wait....
     
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  13. akaGatorhoops

    akaGatorhoops VIP Member GC Columnist

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    This is silly.

    Let's look at those remaining 6 . . . .

    Hudson
    Allen
    Stone
    Hayes
    Stokes
    Bassett
    Gak

    As you alluded too. . . Allen, Stone and Hayes are not his recruits, though I would argue that Hayes is absolutely maximizing his abilities.

    Of the remaining, BOTH Stokes and Bassett had MAJOR injuries that took them off the court and away from the game. There was no practicing, much less developing. Bassett's nagging injury nearly ended his career. He was able to slowly slide into the rotation a year ago, but this was his first healthy off season and first year he entered injury free.
    Stokes is only NOW able to even start playing limited minutes.
    To suggest they are not meeting expectations is another a way of saying, "I dont like Mike White, and this supports my case".

    As for Hudson - his issues are clearly not 'developmental' as he had a fantastic season a year ago, clearly improving his game while sitting out, and subsequently while playing in 2017-2018. His issues are mental. That said, I do NOT think White handled Hudson's struggles well, and I am betting he may even acknowledge that now. We do not know what does on in practice, but White's course of action . . as justified as it may have been . . . certainly didn't have the desired effect.
     
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  14. akaGatorhoops

    akaGatorhoops VIP Member GC Columnist

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    Let's look at White's recruits/additions since he has arrived and see who has/has not "met/exceeded" expectations:

    Hester - Nope. A flop. Most figured he wasn't SEC caliber player, and his recruitment was a reflection White's scrambling to pull a couple players very late.

    Bassett - N/A. Has spent most of his career injured. He sat out his entire first year with injury, and returned to very limited playing time a year ago. He is now a sophomore, and in his first season that he entered fully healthy.

    Leon - Exceeded. Most figured the juco who followed Mike from La Tech would contribute very little. He developed into a very good player and instrumental to the Elite 8 run.

    Gak - N/A. He has spent virtually his entire career either playing injured or on the sideline - which is where is now.


    Barry - Exceeded. Huge part of Florida's Elite 8 team, and named SEC 6th Man Of Year.

    Koulechov - Exceeded. Led team in rebounding w/ 6.4 rpg and averaged 13.8 ppg.

    Stokes - N/A. Sat out his entire first year rehabbing a knee injury. He is now playing his first year, and is slowly getting additional minutes as his rehab and conditioning allows.

    Hudson - Exceeded/Failed. The tale of two seasons. . . both of which we are familiar.

    Chase Johnson - N/A. Endless concussions. . . didn't play, off the team.

    Okauru - Tough call . . . I am not sure what the expectations were for a kid we added so late as a filler for the departed Shai. I think he is a good player and could be having a better year, but is losing minutes to a few players.

    Ballard - Exceeded. He has turned into a nice player, who I think has earned more minutes. He clearly improved over the offseason.

    Nembhard - Exceeded. Stepped in big shoes and huge minutes. . . and has generally been very good.

    Locke- Exceeded. Has been outstanding on both ends, especially of late. Has been way better defensively than expected, and has become an aggressive, much needed scorer. He is agruably Florida's go-to player right now.

    Keyontae Johnson - Exceeded. I think most presumed he would come in rather raw and would need a year before contributing, but has had an impact right away.

    So by my count:

    N/A - 4

    Toss up - 1 (Okauru)

    Failed to meet - 2 (Hester/Hudson)

    Exceeded - 6

    To me, this clearly suggests that ... barring massive injury . . . CMW has done really well with the guys he has brought in.

    @wci347 - would you dispute any of those categorizations?
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
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  15. WESGATORS

    WESGATORS Moderator VIP Member

    Apr 3, 2007
    I saw a picture of Mike White, and as expected, he's not saying anything:

    [​IMG]

    Just found this picture; does it look like he's coaching here? Maybe the OP is on to something. Looks like he doesn't even know which team is his.

    Then there are other times when he's telling an off-color joke, and he doesn't want too many people to hear it. Why not use this as an opportunity to coach a player up instead:

    https://www.springfieldnewssun.com/.../02/23/Images/492600_KeVaughnWhite_md8vlm.jpg

    Sometimes, I've noticed the players have had to coach themselves up because Coach White was nowhere to be found:

    [​IMG]

    I see lots of reasons to be concerned.

    Go GATORS!
    ,WESGATORS
     
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  16. gatorbogey

    gatorbogey Premium Member

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    Darn, you should pose this debate and rebuttal into a full fledge article....
     
  17. GatorChoice

    GatorChoice GC Hall of Fame

    Well yeah, but you're forgetting that "We have to learn not to mingle likable people with business decisions!"
     
  18. GatorLurker

    GatorLurker VIP Member

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  19. gtr2x

    gtr2x GC Hall of Fame

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    I'm a fan of Whites and hope he gets this season turned around, but I've never been a fan of coach's calling out college players in public.

    From my seat on the couch, it sure looks like he has mismanaged Hudson. I get that the kid's play has been disappointing, but taking him out after every bad shot or turnover hasn't helped at all and maybe made things worse.

    As far as cutting KAs minutes, sure if you've given up on the season. Big drop off in defense when he comes out and he's still the leading scorer on the team. Realistically if Hudson and Allen both aren't playing, this team is going nowhere, not even the nit.

    Everybody loves the freshmen, but Locke was 5-16 last game. Those aren't winning stats in the long run.
     
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  20. akaGatorhoops

    akaGatorhoops VIP Member GC Columnist

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    There is a lot of truth here, but also a flip side.
    Allen took exactly zero shots in the final 19 minutes. That left a huge burden on Locke, who played a ton of minutes and likely lost his legs by the end of game.
    I’d love nothing more than for KA to play 30 minutes a game...but that assumes he actually plays those 30 minutes... on BOTH ends.
    I agree that his defense can be overlooked, but he absolutely can not go M.I.A. on the the other end. We don’t have the scorers to have him on the floor doing nothing. With he, stone and Hayes our there... it can become a 2 on 5 game when they zone out offensively.
    I agree with whites directive... that he needs to take 12-15 per game.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
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