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For All you Negative Nancys (Debbie Downers) or Nancy's Spewing

Discussion in 'Awesome Recruiting' started by NOLAGATOR, Feb 8, 2018.

  1. gatorev12

    gatorev12 GC Hall of Fame

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    Muschump was not a good coach; he would have been 4-9 there most years and would have been fired within 4-5 years.

    McElwain was a better gameday coach (with the glaring exception of time management), but a worse program manager, so it's tricky to predict. I'd say 6-7 most years, with maybe an 8-5 thrown in there once or twice. I don't think McElwain would have taken Miss State as high as Mullen did, however.
     
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  2. Distant Gator

    Distant Gator GC Hall of Fame

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    I know this is not directed at me, but what a great question.

    I'd like to take a shot because I think I'm pretty fair.
    Plus I have a family member who is a big State fan so I follow them closer than the average Gator.

    Muschamp's biggest strength was his D coaching and recruiting, while his weaknesses were his inability to think beyond being a coordinator as well as lack of experience being head of state.

    It's sort of tough to answer because he came into a UF program that literally had one of the best recruiting classes of all time as sophomores. Whereas the cupboard was bare at MSU after a few years of Croom.

    So would WM have re-built MSU?
    Maybe on the D side of the ball, but the lack of wins would have hurt recruiting.
    And then his inattention to the O would have doomed him.
    So I say State under WM would have been like a Vandy.
    Very low scoring, pedestrian offense, but able to bite a bigger team from time to time who came to Starkville with their C game.
    And with some high draft picks from time to time on the D side of the ball.
    So bottom line WM goes 3-9 or 4-8 there, with an occasional upset. Croom 2.0.

    I think Mac would have done better...
    Mac was capable of being a decent coach, but inexplicably saw the UF job as a way to employ his unemployable buddies.
    His strengths were that he could develop some O talent and gameplan, development of 3 star guys, and better team management than WM.
    His weaknesses were bad cultural fit, didn't see the need to work hard, and lack of game management/ strategy.

    If he had employed Nord/ Nuss at State then he would have done better than Croom,.
    His ability to develop 3 star talent also would help, but his coaching would have put a ceiling on it.
    So I think he would have done better than WM, but I see 5-7, 6-6 or at best 7-5 in the good times.
    With 3-9 every 3rd year.

    Now, if Mac had fit in at State, ran it like a business instead of employing his friends, then IMO he would have been 8-4 or maybe 9-3 in some lucky years (when he got a few breaks.) 6-6 as a floor.
    Still not as good as Mullen, but better than Croom or the average State coach.

    Great question.
     
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  3. OaktownGator

    OaktownGator Guardian of the GC Galaxy Moderator VIP Member

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    Thanks Distant - great answer, with knowledge of that program. Much appreciated!
     
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  4. NOLAGATOR

    NOLAGATOR GC Hall of Fame

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    You do realize you have yet to come up with a list of replacements better than Mullen.

    You want some cheese with that WHINE:rolleyes:

    We heard the same Equine Fecal Matter when Urban was hired. He never coached at a big program. His Spread won't work with SEC Defenses. Well, this Staff represents over 30% of the Staff that gave us 2 NCs.
     
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  5. NOLAGATOR

    NOLAGATOR GC Hall of Fame

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    Mullen was not my first choice BUT he is an awesome choice.

    Just the change in Strength and Conditioning will be huge. His commitment to not only recruiting but recruiting HS Coaches will do wonders. AND he is reconnecting with Former Gator Athletes - Many have said they now feel WELCOME.

    I like the passion, the work ethic, the positive climate.
     
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  6. GameTime1

    GameTime1 GC Legend

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    I didn't mean to direct the negative comment at you, that was more just a general thought. Sorry it was unclear.

    Most coaches aren't elite. It is realistic to believe that Mullen might not be elite. But as a Gator fan I will certainly be optimistic about it until proven otherwise. As I said before, I think your criteria for being elite is just too narrow. Beat a end of year top 10 team while at a "lower tier" school, or have a great deal of media buzz? As you said, many coaches dont have that until they get an "upper tier" job. Lets be optimistic til he has that chance! If something goes sideways we can be realistic then.
     
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  7. gatorev12

    gatorev12 GC Hall of Fame

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    Wrong.

    Yes, please, how generous of you to offer. I prefer reds and not picky about cheese.

    Did we? I mostly remember people being very excited about the hire since he was the hottest coach on the market at that time. There were some who wanted Spurrier back and grumbled a bit, sure, but the overwhelming consensus was that Meyer was a home-run hire.

    And, unlike Meyer, Mullen has a losing conference record and losing record vs top 25 teams. You truly trying to say that you DO NOT UNDERSTAND that as a valid critique? That's the real BS here. Come on man. You can be excited about the hire, but that is a totally fair and valid critique that Mullen WILL have to answer whether you like the hire or not.
     
  8. NOLAGATOR

    NOLAGATOR GC Hall of Fame

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    STILL waiting.

    NO list

    Just complaints.
     
  9. DieAGator

    DieAGator GC Hall of Fame

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    Absolutely. Anyone who suggests otherwise has a faulty memory.
    And his losing record is really lopsided. After 25 or 30 of those games you would like to see a major upset or two. Miss St had a losing record in 2016(6-7). We know Mullen was very good as Meyer's OC. We know from his time at UF he tends to win big games with talent and from his time at Miss St tends not to without it. If he is an innovative coach he will do pretty well out of the gate with the players on roster. I just hope he can be a top 10 recruiter most cycles.
     
  10. GameTime1

    GameTime1 GC Legend

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    this one seems unfair to me. I understand expecting a huge upset or two over 9 years. But comparing playing in the SEC to wherever BG and Utah were is a stretch. Meyer was 2-0 in 4 years against top25 teams? Those 2 teams were 4 and 5 loss teams and ended #25 and unranked altogether.

    As for what Mullen has to answer, it doesn't matter one bit the past. It all matters going forward. Same questions gotta be answered at UF
     
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  11. GameTime1

    GameTime1 GC Legend

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    Wasn't able to quote gatorev12 also, but I think there were a lot of questions over the Meyer hire as well. The thought of SOS returning and the question of whether the spread would work in the SEC is probably similar to the folks worried that Mullen hasn' proven himself elite enough yet.

    The majority was happy with Meyer like the majority is happy with Mullen. Some just need to see proof first.
     
  12. Claygator

    Claygator GC Hall of Fame

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    I agree. I believe Stricklin made the right choice given the field at the time.

    First, Chip Kelly was never coming, ever. I don't care what the thousand page "thread" said.

    I was very intrigued by Frost, and thought he was the guy. Some say he had no intention of coming here; I don't know if that is true or not, or what it is based on. What I do know is that he wouldn't commit right away, which put Stricklin in a very tough situation. UT was going to offer Mullen, and if we waited on Frost and he spurned us, we were probably going to lose Mullen. Under those circumstances, Stricklin needed to pull the trigger on Mullen, and I think we landed a hell of a coach.

    Time to get behind him.
     
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  13. NOLAGATOR

    NOLAGATOR GC Hall of Fame

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    But again,

    Who else? You can dissect Mullen vs Urban vs Saban vs Bear Bryant...But MULLEN was chosen because he was available and fit the requirements.

    It is unfair to Mullen or the AD to compare him to anyone else unless they were available and willing.

    As a Gator, the way we treated ZOOK was sad. SOS left us at a bad time but that was not Zook's fault.

    To bash the Mullen hire without giving alternatives is just weak. To compare his record at MSU with Bama, UGA, or UF is unfair. Did Penn State do this with Franklin? He was 24 & 15 at Vandy.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2018
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  14. gatorev12

    gatorev12 GC Hall of Fame

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    Again: WHY?

    So you can just shoot down everyone offered with 1) they weren't interested (impossible to prove) 2) weren't available (again, impossible to prove) and then bitch that I'm "whining?" No thanks. It's a waste of time and something impossible for either of us to prove or disprove.

    Grow up. Heaven forbid someone actually look at a coach's resume and see glaring holes there that should be cause for concern.
     
  15. Skink

    Skink GC Hall of Fame

    Oh man, you don't really mean that do you? You speak very frivolously of a legendary thread. And hey, it went over 1100 pages - just sayin'
     
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  16. gatorev12

    gatorev12 GC Hall of Fame

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    I do remember there being some dissent about wanting Spurrier back and the way Foley treated him in particular left a bad taste as well.

    And yes, do remember there being questions about whether the spread could work in the SEC. Turns out: it can, but it didn't happen overnight for us either. Meyer's/Mullen's offenses didn't really started clicking until Tebow took over QB duties in 07. We struggled in 05 and in 06 with putting up yards and points in many of our games against top defenses (with one beautiful exception in the national championship game). When you don't have an elite QB to make it run, the spread has its issues too; and even then: with a senior QB (and future NFL QB) Dax Prescott in 2015, Mullen went 4-4 in conference play...going winless against ranked opponents if I remember correctly.

    With Meyer, it's valid to look back and question if he was truly "elite" prior to us hiring him. Objectively, there isn't a whole lot there to say one could have predicted his rise. Hindsight colors our vantage point (and thankful for it!).

    With Mullen, we have a LOT more data than we did with Meyer. Mullen's been coaching for 9 years and has developed multiple groups of players over different recruiting cycles. They were always respectable and competitive, it's true; but there's also a lot of red flags to objectively observe.
     
  17. Skink

    Skink GC Hall of Fame

    There you go again - what "glaring holes" are you talking about with Mullen? (EDIT: now there are "a lot of red flags" too?) And to be fair, while you're listing them give some legitimate consideration to identifying some "glaring holes" associated with your preferred alternatives (who you still haven't identified).

    I'm not trying be a butthead here (for once :D) -- if you'd stop saying stuff like that about our new HBC who's busting his ass and doing a great job, perhaps you wouldn't be getting these notes demanding something tangible to back up the incessant negativity about Mullen.

    You're essentially assuming the worst about Mullen because his track record isn't a perfect 10, and then turn right around and generically assume the best about all potential alternatives -- without actually identifying one who was the perfect 10, was viable as an alternative hire, and in this case, had no "glaring holes" of his own. This isn't only unfair to Dan Mullen, it isn't even logical.

    Just my $0.02 worth -- at least we agree politically :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
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  18. Notoriousgator

    Notoriousgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Very well thought out response. Good post.
     
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  19. Notoriousgator

    Notoriousgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Good post NOLA. The more we hear about the last dopey crew that was supposed to be coaching up our kids and getting them into shape, etc...the more it sounds as if we had ZERO, NADA, NOTHING in terms of strength and conditioning. It's baffling to hear that our kids had to pay for their own trainers/workouts. It sounds like they didn't have anything resembling structure in place for these kids.

    Shameful
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
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  20. Notoriousgator

    Notoriousgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Not for nothing but our 2006 offense was actually pretty good even with Leak running the spread. I think its a common misconception that our offense was bad or poor due to having so many close games.

    It may have seemed that we struggled even though our offense was ranked #24 in scoring and #19 in total yards in the country. That's nothing to sneeze at.
     
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