Welcome home, fellow Gator.

The Gator Nation's oldest and most active insider community
Join today!

Finally - blow against police “shoot first” culture

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by demosthenes, Feb 13, 2018.

  1. demosthenes

    demosthenes Premium Member

    9,144
    1,047
    798
    Apr 3, 2007
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...-virginia-police-officer-settles-lawsuit?CMP=

    I don’t know how far the ramifications of this suit will travel but it has to embolden other officers to pursue no -lethal options before resorting to final measures.

     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. gatorpika

    gatorpika Premium Member

    7,057
    785
    408
    Sep 14, 2008
    What would have happened if something snapped in the crazy dude's mind and he shot the officer's partner? There really isn't a good answer for these types of situations. It's a judgement call that can go very badly no matter what you do.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  3. demosthenes

    demosthenes Premium Member

    9,144
    1,047
    798
    Apr 3, 2007
    What you can control is how you react. Defaulting to shoot first because you can elimate risk is the wrong choice.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  4. gatorpika

    gatorpika Premium Member

    7,057
    785
    408
    Sep 14, 2008
    You didn't answer what happens if he gets it wrong and gets himself or his partner shot. The dude isn't psychic and unstable people can turn on a dime. Do you really want to gamble that some crazy dude who is trained with weapons isn't going to shoot you? I would love it if the right thing happened every time in those situations, but that's not the world they live in. The policies to avoid risk exist to keep those guys alive.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Come On Man Come On Man x 1
  5. demosthenes

    demosthenes Premium Member

    9,144
    1,047
    798
    Apr 3, 2007
    Police take an oath to serve and protect so they should be taking that risk.

    Ambiguity is no reason to elevate an officer’s safety above that of a citizen’s life.
     
    • Winner Winner x 7
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  6. g8orbill

    g8orbill Old Gator VIP Member

    98,725
    12,514
    3,683
    Apr 3, 2007
    Clermont, Fl
    geez louise demo
    the very nature of the situation changes the dynamics

    in the end- it is really very simple-comply with the officers request- if you are innocent you will be okay with putting your hands up and keeping them up
     
    • Winner Winner x 4
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  7. danmann65

    danmann65 GC Hall of Fame

    1,969
    252
    288
    May 22, 2015
    If you are an innocent sane white man yes probably, but a suicidal black man. Suicide by cop is a likely result here.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Dislike Dislike x 1
  8. cluckugator

    cluckugator VIP Member

    831
    263
    378
    Aug 16, 2007
    Shoot 'em first ask questions later! Good ole fashion police work. Hope you aren't serious.

    I'll go with the Veteran's judgement here. He's been battle tested in Iraq and Afghanistan, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt regarding what is a dangerous situation. Not only did a jury agree his actions were correct, they agreed so strongly they felt his former department should pay him 175k.

    In the end it really isn't simple dealing with an armed person with a mental illness.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Funny Funny x 1
  9. OaktownGator

    OaktownGator Guardian of the GC Galaxy Moderator VIP Member

    25,936
    2,172
    2,023
    Apr 3, 2007
    What is the point of having someone respond to a call on a suicidal person, if the only permissible course of action is to kill that person?

    Hopefully this case will result in some changes. We'll see,
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Winner Winner x 2
  10. Gatorrick22

    Gatorrick22 VIP Member

    60,096
    8,865
    2,358
    Apr 3, 2007
    Suicidal people are far more dangerous that a call for some other non-life and death reason. A suicidal man/woman are far more likely to take someone else with them to the next life.

    But to be fired because of not shooting a suicidal man is not right either. I don't understand why that cop got fired, unless that's the crazy police protocol in that situation. But even still that has to be changed if that's the case..
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 2
  11. GatorFanCF

    GatorFanCF Premium Member

    3,619
    361
    313
    Apr 14, 2007
    Funny how, per the story, the termination letter equates what he did with “making no decision at all.”
    He DID make a decision - to talk to and try to reason with someone.
    Effectively, the police force is saying: decision = shoot to kill.
     
    • Winner Winner x 5
    • Agree Agree x 2
  12. gator_fever

    gator_fever GC Hall of Fame

    3,894
    493
    343
    Nov 3, 2013
    I wonder how the appeals courts would look at something like that if they didn't settle already at a rather small cost apparently. Fired for not following what policy calls for I am guessing this case basically is.

    I know in Florida and most states appeals courts they have tossed many jury awarded suits on appeal for agencies not following their own policy saying that isn't enough and it has to arise to clearly reckless disregard by the police or similar wording but this would be an employee rights issue I guess and the reasonable officer stuff could be argued I guess.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  13. WarDamnGator

    WarDamnGator GC Hall of Fame

    6,373
    325
    438
    Apr 8, 2007
    Damn ... he was fired for not shooting a non-threatening black guy fast enough ... the state of today’s police force.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. wgbgator

    wgbgator Very Stable Genius Premium Member

    Apr 19, 2007
    Geo-hell
    I wonder if his military training played a hand in his response.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  15. danmann65

    danmann65 GC Hall of Fame

    1,969
    252
    288
    May 22, 2015
    Bill if you are going to deny that a black mans interactions with the cops unfold differently than a white mans. Then we must exist in different universes.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Funny Funny x 1
  16. gatorpika

    gatorpika Premium Member

    7,057
    785
    408
    Sep 14, 2008
    Right, so you are going to train officers not to shoot at the guy who made the CHOICE to wave a gun around in a threatening manner and put their lives at risk because he has rights and stuff? Then you tell them that's what they signed up for when someone dies. I guess you don't like having police protection because I don't know too many people that are going to sign up for that. Nobody wants to see people getting shot by the police, but it's not a simple black and white issue. Maybe this guy made the right choice for that situation, but if the next guy is trained to do the same thing and it's the wrong decision then he or other officers/civilians get killed.

    I really don't know what the answer is, but it's not as simple as you seem to think.
     
  17. gator_lawyer

    gator_lawyer Premium Member

    4,844
    783
    418
    Oct 30, 2017
    Agreed. This is why more and more PDs are training certain officers to deal with mentally ill people. It signicantly reduces the odds of an untrained cop making a bad decision because they don't know how to handle the situation.
     
    • Winner Winner x 3
  18. homer

    homer GC Legend

    704
    180
    298
    Nov 2, 2015
    What if the cop is black?
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  19. danmann65

    danmann65 GC Hall of Fame

    1,969
    252
    288
    May 22, 2015
    I honestly dont know but I suspect that police treatment is pretty consistent.
     
  20. homer

    homer GC Legend

    704
    180
    298
    Nov 2, 2015
    Police treatment isn’t pretty consistent.

    All you hear about are the bad ones.

    The good stories don’t make the news.

    Over a thirty year period I watched officer after officer do awesome stuff in the community both on and off duty. Guess what? The bad cops got all the press.

    Unfortunately persons like yourself aren’t aware that there are many more good cops than bad.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1