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Eliminate Lacrosse

Discussion in 'Alligator Alley (other sports)' started by bigsky rooter, May 10, 2019.

  1. FranceGator

    FranceGator GC Hall of Fame

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    That must have been epic. Field is right on the lake (based on watching a lot of those games online) and playing the program we used to call the Death Star.
     
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  2. Brodeur

    Brodeur GC Hall of Fame

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    Totally agree on the football exception to Title IX. Since football usually pays the bills and skews the scholarship numbers so much, it creates too big of a distortion. It's why you have scenarios where men's track only gets 12.6 schollies, but women's track is allowed 18. Like others have said, Title IX had great intentions and good effects, but its implementation needed tweaking.

    A couple clarifying notes on Title IX. You don't need equal scholarships between men and women, they need to be proportional to student enrollment (so a school like GT that's over 60% male doesn't need an even split). OR you need to show you're making consistent progress towards that, or meeting the interests and abilities of the under-represented sex. So when the crew team doesn't fill all of their scholarships, the school can claim they're fulfilling the demands of their female student population even if the total scholarship numbers aren't proportionate.

    The athletic department funds scholarships, those typically are counted against the budgets for each sport. That's why there's the class of donors called the Scholarship Club, when their donations cover the scholarship costs of an athlete.
     
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  3. 8_gator

    8_gator Recruit

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    I'm in full support of having Women's Lacrosse. But id eliminate an entire men's soccer program for about 5 extra football scholarships.

    Maybe 3.
     
  4. gatorjjh

    gatorjjh A Gator with a Glass half full attitude Moderator VIP Member

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  5. thekentuckygator

    thekentuckygator GC Hall of Fame

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    3 more strips and we can make 8 BLT’s with this post! :p
     
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  6. dca1860

    dca1860 Premium Member

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    Not entirely true. There are several other ways to comply with Title IX. Scholarship parity is just one way.
     
  7. g8wayg8r

    g8wayg8r Senior

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    I remember watching the club team play behind Hume Hall 76 or 77. If they can be elevated to more than a club sport, good for them. Don't understand why that bothers anyone.
     
  8. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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    I played a lot of beach volleyball, it’s a much more fun sport to play. As far as the differences, beach volleyball you have to be a better all around player. Serving, digging, passing setting and hitting all have to be solid or you get picked on. Mobility is also at a premium. Some of the best players ever to play at UF would not have been great beach players (but yes, better than me for sure).
     
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  9. BanditGator

    BanditGator GC Hall of Fame

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    Wow. I am so disappointed. I have been a member of this site for more than a decade and I think this is probably the most misguided post I have seen regarding a UF decision that I have ever seen. I have had my issues with Foley, but not ever of title 9 issues.
     
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  10. WhattaGator

    WhattaGator Ever Vigilant Psycho Mod Moderator VIP Member

    Just toss another bacon at the OP of the thread.....

    There... feel better?:D
     
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  11. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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    I think folks are being overly harsh - I disagree with the original post and have posted why, but it does raise some fair points for debate. The sport isn’t overly popular in our region (though growing for sure), isn’t part of the sec footprint, and does mean a higher recruiting and travel budget.
    I think the idea of saying “men should get 85 more scholarships than women because football is unique” is as bad or worse an argument, and that seems to have slipped by.

    And for the record, this was the stated reason for adding it, it’s pretty clear in the subtext academics were a primary concern.

    “We spent several years really looking at women’s sports programs and trying to decide what program would be the best fit here at UF. We looked at a lot of factors,” UF Associate Athletics Director Lynda Tealer said. “Primarily we focused on things like who would we recruit, who would we compete against, are there opportunities to win championships and of course, just bringing in a sport that would really add to our program. We feel like lacrosse fits every one of those areas.”


    University of Florida to Add Women's Lacrosse - Florida Gators
     
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  12. atlantagator86

    atlantagator86 GC Hall of Fame

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    I'm not really clear from this post what side of the argument you're on.

    As far as lacrosse in the region, while it may just be starting to catch on somewhat in Florida, it's a pretty big high school sport in the Atlanta area. My sons went to Lambert high school and even 10 years ago, the school was having difficulty fielding a competitive football team because the best athletes in the school were all playing lacrosse.

    So while it may not have caught on yet in Florida, it's a pretty big sport in the SEC footprint schools. I think the move toward varsity lacrosse in the SEC as a conference has been in the works for a while. While some may perceive UF being some sort of pioneer for women's lacrosse, I think the reality is that UF knew that if it didn't get a head start on the program, it would probably be way behind many of the other SEC schools (particularly SEC East schools) when it eventually becomes an SEC sport. I think that was a smart move.

    As as budget, while they may be higher now, once it's an SEC sport, which I think will be sooner than later, those will come in line with other sports, so I'm not too concerned.

    As far as the 85 football scholarships, I don't see them so much as "unique", but the situation with so many scholarships going to one sport that doesn't have a female counterpart, puts all the NCAA athletics programs in a similar situation. They're having to give a significantly higher number of scholarships to women in sports that will never generate any revenue. Granted many of the men's sports aren't exactly cash cows either.

    My view is that if they take the 85 football scholarships out of the question, UF (and the SEC) could probably add some interesting men's sports like soccer, volleyball and lacrosse that the women already have and build improved facilities that are shared by the mens and women's teams.
     
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  13. enviroGator

    enviroGator Premium Member

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    I think this is a situation where statistics are a bit misleading. The numbers you are using really are more about opportunities, ie., spots on teams, than interest. Since we have moved towards parity in number of sports available to girls you would expect that statistic to move closer to equality. Again, I think that is great.

    But what I said is that in general boys are more interested in sports than girls. I still believe that is true, and did a bit of digging to look at that and found this article. Interestingly enough, it also looks at a statistic based on opportunity that shows near parity, but then it shows a poll which literally is about interest - they asked if sports was a big part of who they were. And here the boys are identify playing sports as a big part of who they are at a rate of nearly 2 to 1 to what the girls responses were - across all age groups.

    [​IMG]

    Mag: Hidden demographics of youth sports

    Here is a Time magazine article that also does a good job of discussing the difference I'm talking about. The show the near participation parity you point out, but then look more at "interest." One interesting statistic they had was for self directed sports, ie., pick up games, where boys are 10 to 1 more likely to be involved.

    The Scientific Reason Men Like Sports More Than Women

    One last article, and here I'm going to use their finding against what they are trying to say. This is a "pro-womens" sports foundation and they say that girls are 2 to 1 more likely to drop out of sports than boys. They claim w/o supporting evidence that it is because of a lack of opportunities (seems the stats that are out there point to near equal opportunities), but I would bet money it is more related to the girls getting to an age where mom and dad let them decide for themselves if they want to keep playing.

    "Here at the Women’s Sports Foundation, we know differently. There is no research (WRONG!) that shows that boys are more interested in sports than girls and we know that girls are just as interested in sports as boys when they are young. A combination of lack of opportunity, lack of peer group support when they do play sports and lack of encouragement causes girls to drop out of sports at a rate that is two times greater than boys by the time they are 14."

    Myth-Busting: Girls Just Don’t Like Sports As Much As Boys Do - Women's Sports Foundation
     
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  14. atlantagator86

    atlantagator86 GC Hall of Fame

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    I would agree with what EnviroGator says in terms of this 42.7% number being VERY misleading. The number has increased dramatically because the schools have set up new women's sports teams and there are roster spots to be filled, not because interest has increased dramatically.

    But a lot of these women's teams are more social and recreational in nature. And I know for a fact that part of the increase in women's high school sports participation is based on the relative ease of getting college athletic scholarships. I have an old friend in Connecticut who's daughter took up field hockey in her senior season of high school because the college she wanted to go to would give her a pretty decent athletics scholarship in field hockey, even though she wasn't even a starter on her high school team.

    I'm not saying that girls aren't interested in sports. There have always been a modest number of women genuinely interested in sports and some of the most competitive people I know are women in their 40s and 50s. And I'll agree that Title IX has done some good in generating more interest, which is a good thing. But to throw out a stat like that, which would make it seem like there's a comparable level of interest in sports by women than men based solely on roster numbers is just misleading.
     
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  15. enviroGator

    enviroGator Premium Member

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    I was going to say something along that line too. I had posted a scholarship breakdown of kids who play in high school vs. available scholarships.

    Crew stood out as a GREAT opportunity to get a scholarship for women. Nearly 1 of 2 high school girls who did crew in HS have a shot at a scholarship. Factoring in only pretty high end colleges have crew and you are looking at a sweet deal. If I had a young daughter I would be pushing them towards crew.
     
  16. LakeGator

    LakeGator Mostly Harmless Moderator VIP Member

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    I am obviously not as informed as some people. My information and perspective comes from interacting directly with high school and college rowers. Rowing is certainly not representative of ‘real’ high school sports. It does have the false claim of providing a very good chance of getting a college scholarship, but it is not a supported sport in the vast majority of the schools in high school or college. This means the kids get no school ‘credit’ for being in the sport and they must pay a significant cost to participate. I know, for an absolute fact, that most of the girls involved are absolutely focused and excited about being athletes. They are not going through the pain and effort for social reasons. Title IX has created the opportunity for these girls to have the chance to be real athletes. The bottom line is that I have personally seen the change in attitude and commitment to athletics amongst girls in the past decade or so. Maybe it only reflective of rowing but I deal to a lesser extent with other sports, such as lacrosse and hockey.

    In the past few weeks I have supported two different rowing regattas - the Florida Sweep Championship in Sarasota in April and the Midwest States Championship in Ohio this past weekend. Here is a breakdown on the numbers of athletes at each. I am sure the experts here will dismiss the numbers as misleading but I know the kids at these championships, boys and girls, where there to do everything they could to compete and win. They are completely committed to be an athlete and there because it is a key part of who they are. There were almost as many girls as boys at both events.

    Capture.JPG

    Some parents fall for the propaganda about getting a college scholarship and push their daughters to row to get one of these free rides. In Florida there are, maybe, half a dozen colleges that offer scholarships. Of the high school programs with which I am familiar the percentage of girls getting college scholarships is about 10%. US Rowing used to claim 33% of high school girls get a scholarship but I certainly have not seen it – certainly not amongst the programs in Tampa, Orlando and Sarasota.

    In the summers, I train with 3 women who are on college scholarships. 2 rowed in high school and one was a Florida state swimming champion who was offered a free ride from the University of Michigan. The latter is typical in rowing in that the rowing coaches look for girls who are big, strong and show success in intense sports like swimming.

    Rowing is one of the most intense and demanding sports. There are hours of intense training in the weight and erg (rowing machines) rooms. There are vomit buckets next to the ergs and one or two get used in every session. It is NOT social or recreational in nature. It takes an absolute commitment to hard work and intense pain to participate. Most girls who get pushed by their parents in the pursuit of a scholarship do not make it through training well enough to make a good boat.

    It could be that rowing attracts the kids that are different from ‘real’ kids. I have interacted with some of the high school girls that play lacrosse and see very similar focus of being athletes as I do with rowers.
     
  17. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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    No sec schools are currently considering adding it. In fact SC was going to add it and backed away. The talent is still almost exclusively in the northeast, but I did agree in my first post that it was growing.

    The post that you quoted was to make the point that everything doesn’t have to be great or terrible)a frustrating tendency of this board), there can be shadss of grey. I supported lacrosse from day one, just saying that it wasn’t a perfect addition and it’s fair to talk about it’s drawbacks - but none of the options at the time would have been perfect.

    And again, football is never going to get its own exemption, nor should it - the whole idea of title nine was to even out scholarships between sexes, that would do the opposite. It’s a nonstarter.
     
  18. ocalaman

    ocalaman Freshman

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    Women's Beach Volleyball would be an easy sport to add and inexpensive. We could become competitive immediately and there are 40 D1 schools that have it, including 10 in the state of Florida and 3 SEC schools (South Carolina, LSU & Miss. St.)
     
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  19. atlantagator86

    atlantagator86 GC Hall of Fame

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    I'm not saying the individual schools will add it. I'm saying I believe before long the SEC will add it. There are very few sports the SEC has as a conference that all the SEC schools do not field teams for. The SEC, as a conference, has been very smart about not adding varsity sports that all the schools will participate in.

    Women's lacrosse is one of the exceptions and Vandy and UF have to play in another conference.

    I disagree. I think the objective should be giving equal scholarships going to men's sports versus the women's counterpart (men vs. women basketball, baseball vs. softball, men vs. women tennis, men vs. women golf, etc.). That's where I think they need ensure equality.

    The problem in my opinion (and I think others agree), is that schools are required to give out a disproportionate number of athletic scholarships to female athletes to offset the 85. And because once you get past football, basketball (M/W) and baseball/softball, there are few if any sports that generate positive revenue.

    So schools are being forced to add women's sports that don't generate revenue just to be able to give out enough scholarships to offset football, but they can't add sports that might be able to generate revenue some revenue, like men's soccer and volleyball, which already have a women's counterpart.

    I understand that isn't the objective of Title 9, but I think it should be.
     
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  20. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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    The sec doesn’t add or remove sports, based on anything other than existing participation levels. Until there are one third of the teams in the league participating it isn’t considered, then the conference votes on whether to sponsor it.

    This is what happened for equestrian a few years ago (it got a waiver for four teams, probably as a favor to new members A&M) So until 2-3 other schools pick up the sport (with none imminent), it isn’t happening.

    SEC To Sponsor Equestrian Championship - Auburn University Athletics

    That was also how wrestling died in the league, SEC schools stopped sponsoring it for title 9 reasons largely...The sec didn’t mandate anything, they dropped it when there weren’t enough teams left - the few remaining teams went to other conferences, didn’t work for them and they dropped it too.

    And college soccer would lose money, just like every other sport not named football or basketball, and even basketball lose money. In fact, even baseball loses more money at UF than any other sport (if you split out the coed ones).

    Which Sports Turn a Profit? -