Welcome home, fellow Gator.

The Gator Nation's oldest and most active insider community
Join today!

Doctoring the Ball (MLB)

Discussion in 'Diamond Gators' started by gtj31, Jun 15, 2021.

  1. gtj31

    gtj31 GC Hall of Fame

    I have never heard of it at the college level.
     
    • Fistbump/Thanks! Fistbump/Thanks! x 1
  2. GatorLurker

    GatorLurker GC Hall of Fame

    7,410
    2,691
    1,158
    Apr 8, 2007
    I saw an opposing pitcher at the Mac a number of years ago go to his mouth multiple times before every pitch and he didn't wipe his hand all of the time. Very old school. Reminded me of watching some MLB pitchers in the 1960's. It was a non-conference game and I don't remember the name of the pitcher or the school.

    Spitters are not the same deal as applying a substance to get a better grip, though.
     
  3. 74nole

    74nole GC Hall of Fame

    6,316
    2,594
    1,133
    Apr 9, 2007
    Marianna, Fl

    I remember that too. Pretty sure his name was Earl Something…;)
     
    • Funny Funny x 4
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. shelbygt350

    shelbygt350 GC Hall of Fame

    5,297
    512
    358
    Apr 3, 2007
    The game is crap right now.

    Last night, Reds beat Brewers 2-1 in 9 innings.

    54 outs. Each team struck out 17 times or 34 of 54 outs = 63%.

    Can you imagine paying for a ticket and watching that. It's not like it was Koufax on the mound. Or Nolan Ryan.

    So the pitchers whine that the ball is too slick. Or they fear getting hurt. Hey, get another job.

    As to the batters, if I was a manager (and I'd be fired real fast for this) I fine each player $1,000 for each time they struck out with a man on base. Put the ball in play !!!!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. GatorLurker

    GatorLurker GC Hall of Fame

    7,410
    2,691
    1,158
    Apr 8, 2007
    Actually they say with a better grip they are less likely to hit a batter.

    The HBP stats do not bear that out.

    I agree that a lot of strikeouts is boring baseball, but some great hitters struck out a lot. Reggie Jackson and Jim Thome are 1-2 for career K's. You just don't want an entire line-up of such guys. You need other players to set the table. Then a lot of their round trippers are multiple run shots.
     
  6. Matherly87

    Matherly87 GC Hall of Fame

    4,536
    4,610
    613
    Oct 3, 2016
    Ocala, FL
    Earl Something.......Never heard of him!:)
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
  7. GatorLurker

    GatorLurker GC Hall of Fame

    7,410
    2,691
    1,158
    Apr 8, 2007
    Not true. It was once legal.

    The spitball was partially banned around 1920 and Burleigh Grimes was allowed to pitch it until his retirement in the early to mid 1930's. There were a number of others allowed to pitch it, but IIRC he was the last one allowed to do so. Ed Walsh won 40 games one season (1908) throwing spitballs legally.

    I am not sure about the shine ball. If you watch the movie Eight Men Out one can see a dark stain on the leg of some of the pitchers. That is where they applied the "shine".

    Now the jokes about how old I am.
     
  8. johnny_cakes

    johnny_cakes All American

    376
    126
    333
    Apr 2, 2017
    KSP Stadium
    As a softball guy, I don't really follow baseball, but my wife likes the Washington Nationals. The last three games:
    Fri:
    Padres 24
    National: 8

    Sat:
    Padres 10
    National 4

    Tonight
    Marlins: 1
    Washington: 18

    Games are pushing 4.5 hours. You'd need to take out a home mortgage loan to be able to buy beer at the stadium that long. I'm thinking MLB needs a mercy rule.

    But you are saying pitchers in great control even after the "enforcement" action. I was thinking not so much, given the high scoring. Dunno, not a baseball guy so really don't know.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021
  9. INGATORSWETRUST

    INGATORSWETRUST GC Hall of Fame

    15,935
    585
    818
    Apr 8, 2007
    Florida
    ESPN.com: MLB - Perry greased batters with his stuff

    Remember the King of baseball doctoring, Gaylord Perry? HOFer and everyone knew for years what he was doing. No one cared back then. Pine tar on George Brett’s bat to give better grip and on pitcher’s gloves to help their slider and sinker move better
     
  10. GatorLurker

    GatorLurker GC Hall of Fame

    7,410
    2,691
    1,158
    Apr 8, 2007
    Billy Martin all game knew that George Brett had too much pine tar on his bat and waited until the right moment to spring his surprise. It is not the amount of pine tar, but how far up the bat it could be applied. IIRC the distance from the bottom of the bat to the highest place it could be was just a bit more that the width of home plate so that it was easy for the umps to measure it.

    Brett's bat was out of compliance and the the umps made the right call based on the rules they were given. But the Commissioner has the power to overrule anything and he did.

    Is this justice?

    Good question.

    We deal with questions like this all the time in life. Do we always slavishly follow rules or do we sometimes bend them to do what is equitable?

    Now it is a question of if you are a Yankees fan or a Royals fan.

    I am neither. I am a fan of the game.

    And if it was up to me I am not sure how I would rule on this.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. gtr2x

    gtr2x GC Hall of Fame

    13,930
    804
    673
    Aug 21, 2007
    Have always found it inconsistent at best that guys like Whitey Ford, Gaylord Perry, joe Niekro, etc are considered heroes, yet guys like Bonds and Sosa are considered disgraced cheaters.
     
  12. GatorLurker

    GatorLurker GC Hall of Fame

    7,410
    2,691
    1,158
    Apr 8, 2007
    I never thought of guys that doctored a baseball as heroes.

    But I think of Roger Clemons as a bigger cheater than any of those guys,

    Guys that juiced were also bad but bad at a much higher level. It was much harder to catch them and it was a much larger advantage.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. 74nole

    74nole GC Hall of Fame

    6,316
    2,594
    1,133
    Apr 9, 2007
    Marianna, Fl
    2x—

    At least for me—there’s a world of difference in putting spit or any other foreign substance on a baseball to attempt to gain an edge compared to injecting your body with whatever to perform at a higher rate.

    It doesn’t even belong in the same discussion for me…..
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. gtr2x

    gtr2x GC Hall of Fame

    13,930
    804
    673
    Aug 21, 2007
    I think a lot of fans, especially Yankee fans would disagree with your first sentence. I know as a little kid I was a big Whitey Ford fan.
     
  15. gtr2x

    gtr2x GC Hall of Fame

    13,930
    804
    673
    Aug 21, 2007
    To me it's all cheating, illegal substances, illegal bats, banned steroids, etc, but I'm guessing I'm in the minority. The guys I used as examples are folk heroes to some and I was a big fan of theirs growing up, but not so honorable, JMO.
     
  16. GatorLurker

    GatorLurker GC Hall of Fame

    7,410
    2,691
    1,158
    Apr 8, 2007
    Guys like Gaylord Perry and Whitey Ford did their cheating/"getting an edge" in plain sight. They took a risk of getting caught in real time. And the edge they got was not huge.

    Not like the guys getting juiced.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
  17. gtj31

    gtj31 GC Hall of Fame

    So now we are discussing the price of the prostitution??? Cheating is cheating, no? Corked bat is illegal too but doesn’t keep people out of the Hall.

    I think baseball trying to pick a moral high ground anywhere is ridiculous. It has been a game of “finding an edge” for 140 years!!!
     
  18. GatorLurker

    GatorLurker GC Hall of Fame

    7,410
    2,691
    1,158
    Apr 8, 2007
    So maybe the HOF should be empty?
     
  19. gtj31

    gtj31 GC Hall of Fame

    I think you have to realize that no one is clean. Picking arbitrary lines that are changing in time is a bit of an odd approach, no?

    You literally defended “open small cheating” while condemning big closed cheating. I don’t know. Feels like the numbers are the numbers and punishments at the time in terms of suspensions should be levied but the numbers speak.

    We have who knows how many pitchers that have skewed numbers for a handful of years now because of special sunscreen and we will pretend it never happened when they are up for the Hall but we had Bagwell and the like who may or may not have cheated with similar numbers as the cheaters and he gets a pass.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. GatorLurker

    GatorLurker GC Hall of Fame

    7,410
    2,691
    1,158
    Apr 8, 2007
    A lot has to do with the culture of the sport.

    I played golf and I played Bridge and cheating was totally against both of the ethos of the game. I never improved my lie playing golf unless we all agreed on winter rules and I never ever cheated at Bridge. Golf is the one game where you are on your honor because without cameras on you nobody would know if you cheated. We are not all Judge Smails.

    I also played euchre and if could get away with it cheating it was fine and the mark of a great player.

    I don't take honor it that, but I did do well seeing my partner's cards in the reflection in the TV screen behind him.

    If I was playing Bridge I would have announced that and have somebody put a blanket over the TV.