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Dept. of State cites 38 people for wrongdoing in Clinton Email Probe

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by CaptUSMCNole, Oct 18, 2019.

  1. CaptUSMCNole

    CaptUSMCNole GC Hall of Fame

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    No because they are playing word games in order to come to that conclusion. DoS stated no document with classification marking was sent to Clinton's server. That is factually false since the FBI specifically stated there were documents with portion classification markings on them, specifically “(C)” for confidential. They are claiming that a portion marking isn’t actually a classification marking, which is bull manure. I'm also not sure how you can say 38 people were culpable for spillages but not say there was a wide spread problem.

    Does anyone really think that the State Department was going to come out and admit that there was an agency wide, systemic issue with handling classified information because the SecState, and former POTUS nominee three years ago, refused to set up email accounts for Secret and Top Secret networks? They aren't going to admit it because that is not how the federal agencies works. They are going to protect the agency and claim it was just a few (or 38) bad apples. Which is what the CIA did when it was caught accessing information on the Senate Intel Committee network it was not suppose to. Admitting that 38 people were found to be culpable is about as close as an agency is going to come to admitting fault.

    Let's also see if they release the report.

    BTW - This is also why I've lowered my expectations for the IG report about Crossfire Hurricane. I think we'll see something like lower level folks being found culpable but the senior leadership did nothing wrong.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  2. BLING

    BLING GC Hall of Fame

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    I never claimed what Clinton did was entirely proper, it just wasn't worth all the histrionics coming from the right. Lock Her Up. Lock Her Up! Remember, you were talking about emails. Emails so sensitive to our national security that house republicans cheer-leaded leaking the ones Clinton voluntarily turned over to congress, and the POTUS begged his Russian friends to illicitly "find" more!

    BTW I'm pretty sure what Trump did is not "legal". He used taxpayer dollars, and a shadow foreign policy (which undermined our actual foreign policy and national security interest), to BENEFIT HIS OWN ELECTION CAMPAIGN. That's where he crossed the line, the intersection of these things (hiring Giuliani may have been fine otherwise, but once he got U.S. diplomats involved - including yanking those against his "plan" - and had his cronies try to extort Ukraine using that military aid as leverage, he clearly crossed the rubicon). There's a whole host of laws those actions violate, not the least of which would be what the constitution more vaguely would simply call "high crimes and misdemeanors" or "abuse of power". His violation here is such an anathema to American rule of law, in cozying up with dictators and gangsters, I'd prefer to just call it what it is: TREASON. Not in the loose sense that Trump throws that term around either, but in the sense that we have a POTUS who is actually selling out our foreign policy to enemies of the U.S. and enemies of democracy in general.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
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  3. CaptUSMCNole

    CaptUSMCNole GC Hall of Fame

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    It's not emails, it is classified information we are talking about. Something that HRC and her campaign worked overtime to never admit to. She was the subject of a criminal investigation by the FBI for that, not emails. There was even information classified at the SAP & STO level, which requires a separate set of handling requirements. That is a very big deal. You have to realize that a lot of people have gone to jail for doing very similar things that Clinton did. To this day there are a ton of intel professionals that state there is no way they would not have been charged if they had that much classified information stored in their home.

    Please realize, when you say it was "just emails" it's the equivalent of Trump fans claiming Stormy Daniels is lying and is just out to get him.

    I will agree with you about Trump extorting Ukraine but you did not list that in your previous post.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  4. PerSeGator

    PerSeGator GC Legend

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    So on the one hand, when the president does it, that means it's not illegal. But on the other, it's completely outrageous that the SOS was supposedly treated differently than the rank and file.

    Well, no one ever accused Republicans of being the most consistent bunch when it comes to ethics.
     
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  5. BLING

    BLING GC Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, I mean, under this theory Obama could have just made the investigation "go away" at any point in time and it would have been kosher. Right?
     
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  6. PerSeGator

    PerSeGator GC Legend

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    Ah, but you forget. Obama was a Democrat. That means all the rules change. He was actually expected to act with integrity.
     
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  7. BLING

    BLING GC Hall of Fame

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    As SOS, Clinton surely handled secrets that likely had a physical chain of command, briefcase chained to a bracelet type stuff. That doesn't excuse her for having a server. But if you are that high up and handle 100,000 highly classified documents - including the absolute most top secret national security stuff - I'm sorry but common sense indicates if you "mishandle" some relatively unimportant items, albeit still with lower level classification, it's most certainly different from what a "rank and file" person might be dealing with. This is what I said back then, and it still stands today.

    The reason they are more harsh on lower level people is simple, for a person making $30,000 a year, maybe some of those documents would have financial value to them. So they effectively want to scare people into not even thinking about stealing or copying any classified documents. Context should always be taken into account when dispensing justice, and yeah I've heard a few cases that seemed questionable (like the guy who got 1 year in prison for taking a picture inside a submarine, I remember that being contrasted against the Clinton situation). I'd think an illicit motive (i.e. intentional theft or distribution to 3rd party) should be shown before you actually dish out a prison sentence, being fired or discharged is a more appropriate response to someone who screws up without any ill intent. It's not even clear these 38 people rose to that level (since reportedly the State Dept under Mike Pompeo was retroactively classifying things to try and ensare people back into this Clinton probe, would be quite disgusting to fire somebody from their career on that basis). I think Trump would call that a witch-hunt.
     
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  8. AndyGator

    AndyGator GC Hall of Fame

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    Republicans are desperate to deflect from Trump:

    Biden corruption! No? Go back to Clinton corruption. If all else fails, go back to "Deep State".
     
  9. danmann65

    danmann65 GC Hall of Fame

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    What I dont understand is why am I the only one in favor of Trump and Hillary sharing a cell?
     
  10. fredsanford

    fredsanford GC Hall of Fame

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    We have clear evidence of the crimes of one. For the other, only fantasy crimes.
     
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  11. CaptUSMCNole

    CaptUSMCNole GC Hall of Fame

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    HRC mishandled some information that was classified at the highest levels. It was not "relatively unimportant items." And there were hundreds of emails that contained information that was owned and classified at the time by the IC, not DoS information. Again, HRC refused to set up email accounts on Secret and Top Secret networks which prevented her from being able receive classified information for herself. That was a very big cause of the spillages. All of this just to avoid political opponents from FOIA-ing her email correspondence.

    Sorry, mishandling classified information is a binary thing. Either you did it or you did not do it. I'm sure Sandy Berger would have loved to use your standard though. You don't want to add context because if you did, it gets worse for HRC. She was the Original Classification Authority for the Dept of State, meaning she was the senior person responsible for classified information at State!

    BTW, your policy of be tougher on the junior folks isn't what you want. Lots of political appointees that aren't making a whole lot in DC when compared to the cost of living. Someone making $125k to $175k is just as likely to sell classified information as junior folks.

    Your bit about Pompeo is pointless. The FBI already had all the determinations of classification of the information deem to be classified on HRC's server in the summer of '16. It would be pointless to try and go back change the classification.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  12. danmann65

    danmann65 GC Hall of Fame

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    I forget you are a blind partisan. Hillary is good and all Republicans are evil. You are the problem.
     
  13. fredsanford

    fredsanford GC Hall of Fame

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    Never said that. But it’s just become part of the zeitgeist that Hillary should be jailed for...something. That something is usually imaginary.
     
  14. rivergator

    rivergator Too Hot Mod Moderator VIP Member

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    So you reject the State Department's report because it didn't conclude really bad stuff about Hillary Clinton. And you're prepared to reject the Crossfire Hurricane report unless it finds, what, really bad stuff the FBI did to Trump?
    A bit partisan, don't you think? No offense.
     
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  15. fredsanford

    fredsanford GC Hall of Fame

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    Execution for Hillary and exoneration for Trump are the only acceptable outcomes.

    The facts that get them there don’t matter.
     
  16. GatorRade

    GatorRade Rad Scientist Premium Member

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    I’m in favor of just results, and I think people should face justice, if a jury of their peers determines they should. In this case, neither has, so I wouldn’t go for jailing for either at this time.

    however, the standard for removing a president should be much lower than taking ones freedom, so I do support removing trump at this point.
     
  17. danmann65

    danmann65 GC Hall of Fame

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    I am not opposed to removing Trump. I think we are better off voting him out of office though.
     
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  18. duchen

    duchen VIP Member

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    We have gone over this ad nauseum, including the legal requirements for a crime under the judicial interpretations of the Espionage Act. Requires knowledge and intent.

    Bottom line is that the title of this thread borders on a lie by a self proclaimed expert in handling classified information and in post 61 he criticizes the report he says found wrongdoing.

    Time to move on from Hilary's e-mails.
     
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  19. GatorRade

    GatorRade Rad Scientist Premium Member

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    Ive struggled with this, but at this point I favor removal. I think we should all be able to admit when there’s a serious problem and remedy it, rather than just wait for nature to take its course.

    however I understand the idea of preferring not to remove.
     
  20. CaptUSMCNole

    CaptUSMCNole GC Hall of Fame

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    No. I am rejecting this report because it is stating things that are provable false. A portion marking is a classification marking and those were found to be on Clinton's server. 38 people involved in spillages of up to STO and SAP level intelligence is a organizational level problem. That is almost a full platoon worth of individuals who were found to be culpable in spillages.

    I think you are misreading me on Crossfire Hurricane. It is about agencies protecting themselves, not favoring a particular side. This time it happens to be Obama Admin's turn being investigated. I'm sure in a year or two, there will be one about an agency under the Trump Admin. The agencies are not going to admit to a major errors or that they did not have policies in place that allowed major errors to occur. They will admit to individuals being at fault but only because they went around an agency's policy.

    As an example, the Marine Corps went through something like this with the Marine Sniper's urinating on dead bodies. One of the officers in that Bn was the son of a former Commandant and was selected for command and promotion. While every other officer remained on legal hold, this officer and one other were allowed to be promoted and PCS. The Marine Corps Times smelled something rotten and basically was able to prove that the senior levels of the Marine Corps leadership pulled strings for a former Commandant's son. The serving Commandant (CMC) did not take that at all well and tried some underhanded things to retaliate against the Marine Corps Times. The Marine Corps Times got wind of it, put in a FOIA request for any CMC communications about themselves and ended up getting it which put the CMC in a bad spot and enraging him further. Guess what happened to that CMC and senior leaders? Nothing. Meanwhile careers at the 0-2 to 0-4 level were ruined and all those senior leaders will say mistakes were made but not by the organization.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019