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Bitcoin Farm => 210 MW

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by G8trGr8t, Apr 20, 2021.

  1. gator10010

    gator10010 GC Hall of Fame

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    It's just a scare tactic that makes for good headlines. Bitcoin's CO2 emissions are actually smaller than the media would have you believe.

    From the article:

    "Comparing the annual emissions output from Digiconomist with CO2 Emissions data from Our World In Data, we find that Bitcoins global share of emissions of ~47 million tons Co2 is only ~0.13% of the global annual total of ~37 billion tons today. "

    We Need To Talk About The Climate Problem in Bitcoin Mining
     
  2. WarDamnGator

    WarDamnGator GC Hall of Fame

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  3. 92gator

    92gator GC Hall of Fame

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    upload_2021-5-12_22-5-31.png
     
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  4. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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    So one out of every 800 tons of carbon released is to create a fictional piece of currency that has no intrinsic or real value?
    I would still call that pretty wasteful.
     
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  5. docspor

    docspor GC Hall of Fame

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    I'll take bad economics for $1000.

    This cardigan musta cost a fortune to make

    [​IMG]
     
  6. fubar1

    fubar1 Premium Member

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    Great and informative read. Thank you!

    So where are you or have you been investing your money in the crypto space to take advantage of the future benefits of blockchain technology? Bitcoin, ethereum or in Blockchain investments?
     
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  7. gator10010

    gator10010 GC Hall of Fame

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    I think everyone should own Bitcoin and Ethereum.

    Since it's still early the best long term approach would be to aquire a basket of crypto currencies understanding that some of them may go broke but the few crypto currencies that hit will likely make you a lot of money.

    You can day trade the volatility, you can buy and hold until later in the bull market or you can buy and hold forever. They all have their advantages and disadvantages.

    Also, please remember to do your own research and invest only what you are comfortable with.

    Right now I have Bitcoin, Ethereum, Cardano, VeChain and Binance Coin. I'm looking at Polkadot and Chainlink. ICP (Internet Computer Protocol) had an impressive launch even though the price has fallen. This one is interesting as well.

    One reason research is so important in crypto is because everything sounds good with huge upside but in reality many of them will fail just like the dot com bubble...but the few that survive are going to hit big. Also, some crypto currency owners are like cults and their crypto is the best and only crypto out there....and if you disagree with them then you are in for an argument.

    Personally, I am a big fan of the blockchain technology, the smart contracts and DeFi. These all have real applications that can disrupt, even eliminate, entire professions.

    NFTs are hot right now and are probably here to stay but I choose to not mess with NFTs and just buy more Ethereum because that's where most of the NFTs are coming from.

    Looks like I'm going to buy some more Bitcoin and Ethereum today. Thanks to Elon Musk.
     
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  8. fubar1

    fubar1 Premium Member

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    Thank you, and makes a lot of sense especially the comparison to the dot.com stocks.

    I'm left wondering if Bitcoin hasn't already firmly established itself as a long-term player given the institutional momentum and merchants beginning to accept it for payment. Said differently, has it already reached "Google" or "Zoom" verb status to an extent? Will be an interesting next few years.
     
  9. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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    It may hit big why? Why would I want to pay 50 times more for the privilege of using a coin that’s not universally accepted than I would have even a few years ago? Even if it was universally accepted, why? Or if it doubles between now and next year, why is it worth double to the dollar than it was? It won’t be a reserve currency as its valuations fluctuate far too wildly and there isn’t enough of it. It could be a virtual commodity, but to what end when it’s that volatile? It could be an alternative currency, but it’s already that, and what added value does that truly provide?
    I always ask and no one ever has a good answer - what is the rational defensible justification for bitcoin’s price today? Can
    Someone point me to some sort of explanation/calculation that shows me why 50k is a fair price for it vs $10 or a million? Or why 65k was at its height? Or why an 80 percent jump this year alone is rational? And that’s before getting to the craziness of doge, which just defies any rational explanation other than someone trying to recreate the Dutch tulip bubble for modern times. And all of that is said while acknowledging that all of these may get back to their highs and significantly surpass them, who knows.

    one interesting thing that things like Bitcoin are exposing though is how different millennials invest. They don’t care what analysts say, they don’t care what market forces say, they only care about what they and their peer groups believe; and have proven there is safety in numbers. Which means bubbles can run a lot heavier than they otherwise might. But the realm test will be when a true downturn comes, whether they still hold on.

    and while these are all rhetorical questions. I work in finance. I understand these processes, which is exactly why I stay clear(and read around on my industry’s view of it, I’m far from alone) even if they go on making money for years.
     
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  10. WarDamnGator

    WarDamnGator GC Hall of Fame

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    I tried to "diversify" in 2017 and regret it. I would have been way better off just keeping Bitcoin and Ethereum. Remember EOS? Neo? Tron? The "Ethereum killers"? Well, it looks like Ethereum killed them.
     
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  11. gator10010

    gator10010 GC Hall of Fame

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    You are kind of all over the place here but I will do my best.

    Volatility is only an issue if you are a short term trader (1 year or less). If you are a longer term trader say 4 or 5 years there is no problem with volatility in Bitcoin. If you are a hodler then volatility isn't a concern at all.

    Bitcoin is a digital safe haven store of value which is better than gold or real estate.

    The only reason gold has value is because some kings got together thousands of years ago and said this is shiny and we all agree that it's valuable....so now gold is valuable....and that's the way it's been for 5,000 years.

    As for Bitcoin's value, when in the history of the world has any individual that has a $100 million dollar property been able to take custody of it themselves and move it anywhere on earth in 30 minutes for roughly $5?

    It's never happened. Have you ever seen someone try and move a bunch of cash or gold through an airport? It doesn't work real well.

    To be clearer, if you own a $100 million dollar piece of property the government can tax you on it, the government can take it from you. If you own $100 million in Gold the bank can take it, the government can take it. You can't take physical delivery of $100 million dollars of stock, you can't take stock out of the US, same with bonds. If you lose confidence in a government's monetary policy then you can't just take your piece of land and move it to Australia....do you ever really "own" real estate outright? No you don't.

    So, I ask you to give me an example of any other property where you can take it anywhere on earth in 30 minutes and even if someone holds a gun to your head they still can't take your $100 million dollar property from you?

    It's a decentralized currency that the government can't just print more of. The government can't even tax you on it considering you can borrow money against your Bitcoin.

    Being able to move Bitcoin and take custody of Bitcoin yourself as an individual is perhaps the single best financial thing that has ever happened to people. The individual is in control of his or her money...not politicians or dictators....and it will only keep the banks and governments honest.

    All the money being printed by our government today and with inflation setting in should be one pretty clear example of why Bitcoin is valuable.

    Doge coin is more of an illustration of the power of social media, just like Game Stop, more than it is a knock on Bitcoin or crypto currency.
     
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  12. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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    Diamonds have filled the role you describe for forever, but they also have intrinsic value. Gold has intrinsic value beyond being a reserve holding, it is used in countless things. Not to mention a 2000 or more year history to track. Yes it’s a decentralized currency, great. That has as much risk as it does benefit, as the last 24 hours have proven, down 10 percent in a day. It’s down 25 percent now in a few weeks, so why is a year safe? Reserve currencies are inherently meant to be safe harbors, 10 percent daily fluctuations are the opposite of that. You can pick up any almost any asset and transport it anywhere, if I moved to Brazil tomorrow, I can still access my fidelity account, I could wire out that money to a foreign account as quickly as I could sell a Bitcoin really. And both would be the same for a robber to use your example. And if Bitcoin is tied to the dollar (which it inherently is), then inflation hits Bitcoin too even if supplies are limited. As an example, if you pay $10 for a coin today, and inflation goes to 100%, Bitcoin price will probably double too. But you can only get $20 for that coin, it has the same spending power you paid at $10. And if it doesn’t change with inflation then it’s valued is halved. The government can still seize it as an asset, can still tax gains etc. And that’s just the start of a response to what you wrote, but people massively overestimate its worth and usage.
    And respectfully, none of that answers my basic question. Why is 50k a fair price for a coin today, how is that value calculated?
     
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  13. WC53

    WC53 GC Hall of Fame

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    So bitcoins purpose is to skirt laws? I am apparently not smart or wealthy enough to understand the non criminals rationale. Do people not ship cash anymore;)
     
  14. docspor

    docspor GC Hall of Fame

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    all this crypto reminds me of a macro econ Q.

    An Englishman goes to a remote Pacific Island on vaca. He paid for everything using checks from the Bank of London. Given that it took some effort to get the checks cashed the islanders just started using them as currency & none were ever cashed. Who paid for the Englishman's trip?
     
  15. WarDamnGator

    WarDamnGator GC Hall of Fame

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    The only reason why I care about Bitcoin is because it keeps going up and making me money. I’ve already made by my initial investment 4 times over by selling small Pieces on the way up. It’s just the house’s money at this point. But I do read bitcointalk.org, and one of the best points the Bitcoin die hards make is that there can only ever be 21 million bitcoins. Imagine the buyin power of a dollar if there were only 21 million of them in circulation and the government could never print more... even if someone lost them, even if they half the dollars all burned in a fire, they are just gone and pool is even smaller... that is the most compelling argument I’ve seen from the Pro Bitcoin people.

    The counter arguements to its long term success? There are many as I see it. Future government regulations. Slow and often very expensive transactions. A better coin taking its crown. Environmental regulations banning mining across the globe.... l
     
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  16. OklahomaGator

    OklahomaGator Jedi Administrator Moderator VIP Member

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    The Englishman paid for it, the Bank of London made a nice profit. Th pacific Islanders break even.
     
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  17. docspor

    docspor GC Hall of Fame

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    the islanders paid for it via inflation
     
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  18. OklahomaGator

    OklahomaGator Jedi Administrator Moderator VIP Member

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    I get that, good question..thanks
     
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  19. gator10010

    gator10010 GC Hall of Fame

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    You keep asking this question like it's some sort of gotcha moment for Bitcoin. You're asking to place a valuation on Bitcoin like you would any other "currency". First, Bitcoin is an asset. Second, and more important, Bitcoin isn't backed by a central bank therefore any monetary policy, inflation rates, economic growth, etc. things that typically influence the value of a traditional currency don't apply to Bitcoin. Which is probably the reason Bitcoin's decentralized value doesn't fit in your centralized finance world.

    But to directly answer your question ....the simplest of answers is, whether you like it or not, Bitcoin is a desirable asset and simple supply and demand is the major driving force behind Bitcoin's value. You could get technical and throw in the cost to mine the Bitcoin or the number of competing crypto currencies but ultimately Bitcoin is digital gold and supply and demand is undefeated....any finance guy understands that.

    Surely a person who believes that diamonds (which aren't rare or limited) have value can see where a truly limited supply of a desirable digital asset does indeed have value.

    We didn't even discuss the amount exponential growth and adaptation rate in the crypto world which brings obvious value.

    One more thing to those people who believe that Bitcoin is a scam, joke, video game, etc

    If you look at Bitcoin as a digital asset....which it is.... then consider the following.

    It took Microsoft 44 years to have a $1 trillion dollar market cap. It took Apple 42 years to reach a $1 trillion dollar market cap.

    Amazon? 24 years

    Google? 21 years

    Bitcoin? 12 years

    Bitcoin is the fastest appreciating asset ever in history.....and it's not even close...no one has ever seen anything like Bitcoin before.....so ask yourself what does Bitcoin have to do to make you a believer? Because it's making other people life changing generational wealth and will continue to do so.

    You wish you got in on Apple, Amazon, Google, etc early......this is your chance to get into Bitcoin early.
     
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  20. gator10010

    gator10010 GC Hall of Fame

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    I think Bitcoin has established itself as the long-term player especially, as you mention, with all the institutional money coming into this space.

    I don't ever plan on selling my Bitcoin as I believe the Bitcoin $250k, $500k and $1 million price predictions are not out of reach over the next 20-30 years.

    Ethereum is quickly reaching the point with me where I will just hold it forever. I might sell it around September or October. If I do, I definitely will be buying more Ethereum in the bear market. As I believe Ethereum has the biggest upside in the entire crypto world.
     
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