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ATL police chief resigns after shooting(officer charged with murder 06/17)

Discussion in 'GatorNana's Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by SCGator52, Jun 13, 2020.

  1. GatorJMDZ

    GatorJMDZ gatorjack VIP Member

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    I hope we are enforcing them. Under normal circumstances one is not authorized to threaten the use of deadly force to terminate a trespass on a private street. If people were trying to enter the residence without authorization, entirely different situation.
     
  2. ncargat1

    ncargat1 VIP Member

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    And I agree with everything you typed. But also destruction of private/public property used to be a crime. Based on how law enforcement has become with rioters, I am not clear on that either. However, under the assumption that in St. Louis, Missouri it still is, a whole bunch of people in that video should have been arrested. None will of course, save possibly one or both of the lawyers.
     
  3. gatorpika

    gatorpika Premium Member

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  4. RIP

    RIP VIP Member

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  5. mutz87

    mutz87 #glassofwatergate VIP Member

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    :)

    I didn't call you out on your tone. Its' fine by me. I was only trying to crack funny.

    Not trying to claim fixing poverty is easy peasy, only suggesting that if we want to fix the elevated crime rates, disorder, and numerous problems among the poor, and decrease the aggressive policing of poor neighborhoods, eliminating poverty would do it.

    As far as Denzel, he's right about families, but still seems to miss the source of the problem. The impact on poverty on every aspect of a person's life can have far ranging negative effects, in particular for those born into poverty. It's a constant disruption.
     
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  6. stingbb

    stingbb Premium Member

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    Exactly what Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd said a couple of weeks back. As violence continues to escalate in in these so-called “peaceful protests” around the country, we need more police leaders like this to speak out. Too many innocent people are dying and way too much private property is being destroyed, and it has to stop.
     
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  7. mutz87

    mutz87 #glassofwatergate VIP Member

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    "Let's just dispense with eliminate poverty bit because that's not going to happen anytime soon and you don't want the success of a program to hinge on waiting decades or generations...."

    I know it’s not going to happen anytime soon. I mentioned poverty because there are only two options here: fix policing and/or fix poverty and inequality. The former is much easier to do (though it will take radical change, thus easier is relative).

    "On the policy changes, you are missing the fact that all of these police departments already have policies addressing what police should be doing, but their culture and political pressure tells them to do other things...."

    Not missing this at all. I have been writing to these very points for years, including many times recently. However, I agree with the rest.

    "You aren't addressing the us vs. them mentality that has developed in police forces around the country. Fundamentally they want to do things they way they want despite changes to the rules...."

    Agree with almost every point here. But to the contrary, if my comments about reforms in policing have been toward anything, it’s about targeting what causes *Us vs. Them.* The intention of *COPS* is to break down this divide by bringing police and communities together in partnership to determine what needs to be addressed and how.

    "Stuff like community policing is an improvement and can work in some areas, but not everywhere. It may take federal oversight to push the areas that just don't care into action as well.... It's not as simple as do X, Y and Z and ...BOOM...utopia!"

    I agree with much here, however it can’t not be a legislative issue.

    PDs will not reform in any meaningful way unless compelled by law. Much of what you have written above demonstrates why imo.

    I never said it was simple. I provided a basic response to your question.

    Thing is I agree with most of what you've written. Not sure though if you've seen on other threads and this one, I've written similarly. My main response to your question is to offer a viable fix, COPS, one that faiap would be more a role reversal in policing than something new.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
  8. ncargat1

    ncargat1 VIP Member

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    Meanwhile, in Oklahoma......I did not realize you could fire a stun gun 25-50 times?

    2 Oklahoma police officers charged in death of man
     
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  9. RIP

    RIP VIP Member

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    You can only fire it once per cartridge but you can keep applying the electricity until the battery dies (or in this case the suspect). Awful stuff and it has to be a really bad way to go.
     
  10. GatorJMDZ

    GatorJMDZ gatorjack VIP Member

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    A stun gun is different than a taser. It doesn't use a cartridge, it works by direct contact.
     
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  11. RIP

    RIP VIP Member

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    I completely overlooked the stun gun part. My brain just saw taser. I had no idea cops even carried those.
     
  12. LouisvilleGator

    LouisvilleGator GC Hall of Fame

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    Horrible solution: ending poverty. Because it'll never happen. You'll always have people in poverty. The correct solution would be (as Denzel alludes to) to look within and improve. It is interesting that you brought up poverty though, because it wasn't until the creation of the welfare state did African-American families really start to fall apart in large quantities. I think Denzel actually notes in an interview that in 1960, a majority of African-American children were brought up in a home with both mother and father present. Obviously, that has changed and in fact, it's been argued for quite some time that the welfare state destroyed the African-American family. I'd even take it a step further and say that for many white liberal politicians, that was the goal. To make African-Americans dependent on government in a perpetual cycle of self-destruction that only the government can bail them out from.
     
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  13. gatorpika

    gatorpika Premium Member

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    My problem with your response is it oversimplifies the issues involved here. I am sure if you had the time you could probably write a book about this and bring up a lot of good points. What you wrote on this forum though seems to point toward solutions that miss the heart of the problem (legislation and fixing poverty). The issue here is that the more people that believe that simply marching around the city center yelling and turning over trash cans and waiting for the government to fix it, the less likely the issues are actually going to get fixed. You already see token changes to appease the demonstrators like banning choke holds in NY, but that doesn't address the reason why an officer would use force to the point of killing someone. I have written over and over on here that this is something that needs to be addressed locally with city and state officials in meetings and at the ballot box. They can pass all the laws they want, but it's the day to day oversight that needs to be addressed.

    The issue isn't the legality of police actions, it's their accountability. People aren't held accountable up the chain for not reporting bad behavior, not stepping in during an arrest to correct a wrong, inadequate training, inadequate funding for training, signing union contracts that make it very difficult to fire dangerous officers, etc. Independent oversight is sorely needed around the country but even that is only partially successful as there are limits to accessing officer records due to personnel record privacy restrictions. In other jurisdictions the police effectively police themselves. There has to be local political pressure on the issue over an extended period of time to change anything and my guess is that's not going to happen. The protesters will go away at some point and everything will go back to the way it was.
     
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  14. mutz87

    mutz87 #glassofwatergate VIP Member

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    We see token changes because police departments will not reform to the extent necessary in significantly reducing the likelihood of violence and aggression without legislation. It is almost always cosmetic or so narrow in focus (such as choke holds) that it leaves the rest of the structural issues alone. The reason there needs to be robust state and federal legislation is to set minimum requirements and to better standardize policing. Local jurisdictions could go further in ensuring much more oversight. Moreover, it's because the culture of the PDs and the ability of rank and file officers to not buy into reforms that makes reforms a challenge. They need the bite of law to compel change. The less laws there are limiting or requiring certain actions, the more PDs will exploit this void.

    It's why for instance, curtailing militarization of policing is critical as would be addressing the way the system deals with the drug problem and petty street crimes and disorder. Policings problems aren't so much in dealing with violent offenders via investigations leading to arrests, it's in dealing with lesser felonies and misdemeanors and disorder on the street where there is far less oversight and far more violations of people's rights, and where community and problem oriented policing would be most effective--because low level criminality and disorder issues are what comprise the vast majority (80%) of reported crimes and arrests. Where policing is less problematical are in locales that are more idyllic; affluent cities and towns with low crime and poverty. Even then, some of these PDs escape scrutiny because they tend to be smaller in size with their problems rarely making national news or generating the type of interest larger departments/cities do.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
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  15. mutz87

    mutz87 #glassofwatergate VIP Member

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    People who argue the welfare-state has destroyed black families get most of it backwards and don't seem to have a good grasp of history. One of the reasons LBJ's Great Society gets invoked so much is because of the misguided understanding of black poverty and the state of the black family unit, which is a result of slavery, oppression, racism, and persistent poverty. In other words, it has always been tenuous. This was documented in the Moynihan Report in 1965 (note that the report is not without controversy, but that's more @ some of its inferences).

    What these critics continue to get wrong about black history were the many negative effects from economic dislocation associated with the Great Migration where blacks were compelled to escape the Jim Crow south but ran into considerable racism and discrimination in the north, especially after the end of WWII. This led to deep concentrations of extreme urban poverty in many cities outside the south such as NYC, Chicago, and Detroit, and to the precipitous increase in black female headed-households and further disruption to the already tenuous black family unit. These critics also miss discriminatory federal housing policies, and discriminatory practices such as redlining by both government and the private sector, and in the 1960s, the explosion of the drug trade, in particular in poor black communities where opportunities for legitimate work were still often blocked despite advances made from the CRA and changing social conditions. Thus, while LBJ's war on poverty may have failed to end poverty as promised, it did not cause poverty or *destroy* the black family unit as you seem to believe.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
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  16. gatorpika

    gatorpika Premium Member

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    Yes, they aren't going to reform themselves and that was my point. Where I differ is that you think we can fix it through federal law and I am saying that we already have federal law, state law, court decisions and department policy that is getting ignored. What's lacking is compliance with all that stuff and oversight to ensure it's complied with. If the police department is lacking resources for training then you get more bad cops. If the training is ineffective then you get more bad cops. If there is no review of their performance in the field (randomly viewing body camera footage for example) then you don't weed out bad cops. If all the performance information is hidden behind clauses in the union contract such that third parties can not review the data, then you don't change the culture. The fed can pass some laws, but they are limited to some extent as policing is a state power. Legislation must be couched in terms of civil rights, but those rights that already exist are being violated. Also if you push too hard at a national level then you will end up with a shortage of police in the most violent areas or police unwilling to protect the most vulnerable people in violent neighborhoods. Community policing is helpful, but it also takes up more resources and doesn't work in many situations.

    Things like low level drug crimes, policing for stats and using techniques like pretextual stops are all things where legislative action could help, or where the policing is doing more harm than the crimes they are trying to prevent. But otherwise you don't shift the culture through laws. The issue is with the people, culture, accountability and processes.
     
  17. mutz87

    mutz87 #glassofwatergate VIP Member

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    You can definitely shift culture through laws. This is where I think we'll have to disagree. Drug laws are what encouraged much more aggression. No knock warrants, multi-jurisdictional drug task forces, use of conspiracy and continuing criminal enterprise laws, asset forfeiture laws, and laws that permitted increased militarization of policing (or maybe lack of laws in a sense), and zero-tolerance broken windows enforcement of disorder laws are what propelled aggression in policing and allowed this culture to flourish over the past half century.

    Yet, laws can reverse the police practices we no longer want and require that which we do. Laws can also standardize policing across states and federally, how police are trained in academies and how training occurs once in departments. Laws can likewise empower robust civilian oversight. My argument is that reforms need to occur legislatively because it is the only way to ensure meaningful, long-lasting change.

    Not sure what would make you think community policing couldn't work everywhere? If it doesn't work it's because police are permitted to address crime in ways that departments' choose to rather than being compelled to by regulation. What community policing cannot do because it's not in its purview in troubled communities is reduce poverty that is always the main source of the problems.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
  18. antny1

    antny1 GC Legend

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    It's my understanding that a taser can act as a stun gun after the cartridges have been shot.
     
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  19. WC53

    WC53 All American

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    Crime rates and poverty are pretty damning. Urban areas get the attention because of population density.

    Education and Jobs. And the community has to want to change. It will take a generation to accomplish. We play all kind of games to fund schools differently throughout the country. I.e. wealthy keep the money in their schools through funky districts, donations directly to schools, etc. in reality poor students need way poor resources than wealthy students. The odds are much higher of single family households, domestic violence, neighborhood violence, less educated parent, no computer, no tutors or other family support. We know these things and tons of dissertations have been written studying them and corresponding societal issues. And yet....

    I think police and education get lumped in and tasked with solving issues that our out of their sphere of influence in solving. It is easier that way than having other tough conversations
     
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  20. ncargat1

    ncargat1 VIP Member

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    This is on the mayor and the interim police chief. Their failure to confront and end this violence and re-assert civil authority over Atlanta has emboldened the rioters and basically surrendered part of the city to pure chaos. Now an 8 year old girl has paid the price for their unwillingness to perform their jobs.

     
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