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An Argument Four 3rd and Grantham

Discussion in 'RayGator's Swamp Gas' started by ArtDeco, Dec 8, 2019.

  1. SewaneeGator

    SewaneeGator GC Hall of Fame

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    This is why I dipped out after the last Grantham post. There are a couple of posters who have chosen some rather specific ditches to die in and will fill any Grantham discussion with a vigor and frequency that far outweighs the actual rationale or substance of what they assert. New thread, same tune.
     
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  2. WhattaGator

    WhattaGator Ever Vigilant Psycho Mod Moderator VIP Member "Cook Shack Chef"

    [​IMG]
     
  3. mcorsair15

    mcorsair15 GC Legend

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    it’s a message board man, calm down. Grantham is GOOD, not great. He’s the best we got right now and we’ll roll with him another year. If we lose to UGA again by having them convert 3rd and 8 or more 65% of the time so help me God. Show me a defensive performance against an elite QB where Grantham won us the game. We were fortunate to play true freshman qbs and backups other than LSU and UGA who have elite or above average QBS. If you can provide that I’ll be served, other wise the “
    vigor and frequency that far outweighs the actual rationale or substance of what they assert
    “ is justified
     
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  4. GolphinGator

    GolphinGator GC Hall of Fame

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    The completion that Georgia bounced off the ground in our game was incomplete against the LSU defense. Those are the difference makers.
     
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  5. SewaneeGator

    SewaneeGator GC Hall of Fame

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    I'm perfectly calm. I just noticed some similarities in this thread to the last few, which became dull repetitions of a few people's hobby horse. Since it's just a message board and people are free to engage or dip out as they see fit, I dipped out of the last one for that reason and am thinking I'll probably dip out of this one too.
     
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  6. 1329gator

    1329gator VIP Member

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    Borrows pre-read the defense and had the ball out fast... I really don't think both DE's healthy would've made a difference in the passing game...I think a healthy Zuninga crashing down would've helped defend the run though. It wasn't by accident they started really kickin our ass in the 3rd quarter after Z went out.
     
  7. goneagaingator

    goneagaingator GC Hall of Fame

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    I don’t really fault Grantham for the LSU game. Two best pass rushers out, against the potential #1 pick in next April’s draft, with LSU putting up record-setting numbers in a night game down in Baton Rouge? I mean, come on. The Florida defense had its back against a brick wall as soon as it got off the bus over there.

    What else do you do but play your corners off the line of scrimmage and hope to avoid giving up the big play? Florida wasn’t getting to Burrow with only a four-man rush, and they got burnt every time they did bring extra bodies.

    What was Todd Grantham supposed to do to solve that offense, on that night?
     
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  8. Skink

    Skink GC Hall of Fame

    Grantham was supposed to invent something that would compensate. These whiners don’t know what that is, and wouldn’t understand it if Grantham explained it to them....but dammit, Grantham should have come up with something.

    Do Something......sound familiar? SMFH
     
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  9. steveGator52

    steveGator52 GC Legend

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    If your starters can’t run the defense you want, do you continue to run that defense, adjust the defense to fit the starters, or try to plug in different players to find someone who can run your defense. Mullen went from a qb run offense to a pass heavy offense when Trask replaced Franks. Grantham ran the same defense with the same players, and had the same players exposed. There were weaknesses in the defense that good qbs/coordinators could easily expose. Pressure can cover those weaknesses on defense, but is harder to achieve against top offenses.

    My issue is rolling out the same underperforming players at the same positions on defense and expecting them to perform better when they have shown no aptitude to do so. It took 7-8 games to realize 21 wasn’t very good at nickel, and to move Wilson over. Offenses today are better able to take advantage of weak points in a defense, especially the upper tier teams.

    The defensive performance against the two best teams we played this year was not good enough to win. Auburn and Miami were games the defense helped win, but both qbs were freshman who made freshman mistakes. Other teams we out-talented still exposed holes in our defense, but weren’t able to take advantage. Wide-ass open receivers that the opposing qb missed without any pressure don’t count against the defense, but are indicative of defensive issues.

    These issues are why I don’t have as much confidence in Grantham as everyone else here seems to have. Some of you are saying if he just fixes his issues he will be good. We said the same thing about Muschamp and McElwien, that if they just fix their issues, we will be good. Muschamp is still unable to fix the issues we pointed out while he was at UF 6 years after the fact. So knowing your faults and fixing them are much harder to do.
     
  10. g8rvet

    g8rvet Premium Member

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    I commented in the body of your quote.

    My points were, and still are:
    1)That was not the worst defensive performance in the history of UF football. Not even close.

    2)It would have made zero difference what scheme or personnel we used against Nebraska on that day. Zero.

    I am not and have not been a Grantham defender or apologist. He has shortcomings. He is not the defensive antichrist that some paint him as. Some folks like to simplify our coaching staff, pick an enemy #1 and just roll with it. I am not one of those.
     
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  11. 1329gator

    1329gator VIP Member

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    Not to mention w/ Burrows running ability he was gonna kill us w/ his legs if we play tight man cause the DB's backs are turned ...hell he converted several 3rd downs w/ his feet anyway.
     
  12. goneagaingator

    goneagaingator GC Hall of Fame

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    Personnel matchups favored LSU across the board, and the only shot Florida - or anybody - had is to pressure Burrow by winning one-on-ones at the LOS. Even with Zuniga and Greenard, that would have been difficult. Burrow’s anticipation is too good to think that sending exotic blitzes every third down is the answer.

    Grantham kept his DBs back, gave the LSU receivers a cushion, tried to keep everything in front of the defense, and hoped that a secondary full of NFL prospects could make plays: the old bend but don’t break.

    But Florida forgot how to tackle for 60 minutes...
     
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  13. steveGator52

    steveGator52 GC Legend

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    Or he should have self scouted the weak spots in our secondary that opposing qb’s were targeting, and figured out how to reduce their exposure. Maybe he could have given another player a shot to do better. Or maybe put Wilson at nickel-back sooner, which could have won the UGA game. If the nickel-back can’t cover well, teams will take advantage. Or maybe learn that zone coverage without getting pressure and crap tackling equals 3rd down conversions. Or maybe he thought that even though it didn’t work 8 out of 10 times, it is sure to work this time.

    He rolled with the same old, same old, and got the same result. We beat the teams we should beat, and lost to the good teams which got good qb play. Another issue I have is the coaches appear to assign starters and roll with them for most of the season no matter how they perform. Wilson should have been switched for 21 much earlier in the year. Diabite(or however you spell it) got into the game due to injury and shone. Why did it take that long for him to see the field? I understand the importance of practice, but if you aren’t getting it done on the field, then the next man up should get a shot, no matter how you look at practice.
     
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  14. fda92045

    fda92045 All American

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    But this is a pattern with Grantham defenses during his career as a DC. I think this is the very valid concern that some posters may have.
     
  15. steveGator52

    steveGator52 GC Legend

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    if he has flaws he can’t overcome, then he isn’t the guy for the job. The brain fart games against talented teams with good qbs can’t happen if we want to turn the corner. UF should be able to attract a top defensive mind, like Dan Quinn, and put out a great defense.
     
  16. ArtDeco

    ArtDeco GC Hall of Fame

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    I'm actually sorry for starting this one. I honestly wondered if the LSU/Georgia game proved or disproved anyone's theories on Grantham's approach to each team. I guess we can't agree on anything anymore.
     
  17. g8rvet

    g8rvet Premium Member

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    I'll drop another truism.

    There are no coaches without flaws. Even the great SOS had them (the regular season UF-FSU game-he would just not go shotgun).

    If you want to say he is not as good as Dan Quinn, I agree.
     
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  18. steveGator52

    steveGator52 GC Legend

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    LSU’s approach against UGA I believe shows the best way to beat Fromm. It was the same defense USC used to upset UGA in Athens. Could the UF defense have pulled it off, no idea. But it is clear Grantham doesn’t share the same philosophy as the LSU dc. He preferred zone and soft man-to-man this year, and a good opposing qb can exploit that. If you play 10 yards off the ball on your heels, a 10 yard out/curl/in is always available and an easy play.

    Conversely, was UGA’s approach against LSU a good approach? If they had the same offensive performance as UF did against LSU, they might have won. I am not sure the UF defense could have pulled that type of defense off against LSU. Again, it isn’t Grantham’s philosophy.

    Edit: Without the ability to get pressure, playing soft against LSU is bending over and asking Burrows to carve you a new one. And that may be the issue with Grantham’s defenses. If he can’t get pressure, either by blitzing or other means, the coverages played behind them are easy to defeat for a good qb.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
  19. goneagaingator

    goneagaingator GC Hall of Fame

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    What is a pattern? Poor tackling? Please clarify.

    Look, LSU played four teams (Bama, Texas, UF and UGA) ranked in the top-10 at the time they played them; they averaged a ridiculous 43 points per game.

    Looking at the film from the game, and basing this question on the personnel advantages LSU already had, what would you have done differently if you were running the defense? What did Grantham fail to do?
     
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  20. fda92045

    fda92045 All American

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    Pattern of his defenses not showing up in big games against elite QBs and OC's. I'm not singling out the LSU game in particular, we were down Greenard, Zuniga was not full strength and our safeties are a weak spot.