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7 Reasons To Get An Abortion...

Discussion in 'GatorNana's Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by gatorplank, Mar 20, 2020.

  1. gatorplank

    gatorplank GC Hall of Fame

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    The Nazis argued that Jews aren’t persons, and this was their justification for killing Jews. How is your position any different?
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
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  2. nolancarey

    nolancarey GC Hall of Fame

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    That might be the better question. As one born without a womb, it's not really for me to make that designation for others. My values don't align with yours, and nothing either of us say will convince the other.
     
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  3. Gator715

    Gator715 GC Hall of Fame

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    You do not seem to be addressing the due process argument that I made...

    If you're not disputing the definition of "person" and that a fetus is "alive," then you must think that fetuses are entitled due process under the law before being deprived of life, liberty, or property...

    Unless you just disagree with the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment, or how it's written...
     
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  4. WarDamnGator

    WarDamnGator GC Hall of Fame

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    I like the new @gatorplank ... giving reasons to have an abortion and quoting from the Satanic Bible. Wow, what a change for the better!
     
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  5. gator_lawyer

    gator_lawyer Premium Member

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    The Fetus in Jewish Law | My Jewish Learning
    An unborn fetus in Jewish law is not considered a person (Heb. nefesh, lit. “soul”) until it has been born. The fetus is regarded as a part of the mother’s body and not a separate being until it begins to egress from the womb during parturition (childbirth).
     
  6. gatorplank

    gatorplank GC Hall of Fame

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    Not so fast.

    I was discussing this passage with a colleague a month ago. He sent me this link:

    What Exodus 21:22 Says about Abortion | Stand to Reason

    I’ll summarize the link. The debate here is over the Hebrew word yasa, which in Genesis 1:24, Genesis 8:17, Genesis 15:4, Genesis 25:25-26, 1 Kings 8:19, Jeremiah 1:5, 2 Kings 10:18 refers to the emergence of a living thing.

    So the question is does anything in the context of Exodus 21:22 suggest the baby is not emerging as a living thing. The answer is no. Exodus 21:22 is referring to a premature live birth. If the baby died the life for life penalty would apply.
     
  7. nolancarey

    nolancarey GC Hall of Fame

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    We're getting precipitously close to the time when what it means to be a person will actually need to be defined, with the oncoming storm of AI. That will be the time to define "personhood". As I've said earlier, "alive" is a broad term which applies to a great many organic lifeforms. An adult pig has greater cognitive ability than children to about 2 years of age, but it doesn't stop humans from slaughtering them while they are actually capable of emotions like sadness and fear. A fetus doesn't know anything; it has base instinctual tendencies like thumb-sucking and genital manipulation. I consider it closer on the path to "person" than ovum or sperm, but until it is in its very late stages it's only gradually more than either.

    I offered you an easy out to end the discussion on relatively cordial terms (i.e. we will never agree on this subject). You've instead decided to turn me into some strawman based on your unfortunate understanding of logic.

    Do we owe due process to an orangutan, which is as intelligent as a human of three years? I don't know.

    Do we value a lab rat, which most assuredly has a heartbeat as well as brain functionality? Do we assign them personhood?

    What is the line and where does one draw it? Is it solely in potential? If so, what's the line there? Should we legislate every menstrual cycle or nocturnal emission?

    My lack of an answer to these questions doesn't mean you get to assign me one.
     
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  8. Gator715

    Gator715 GC Hall of Fame

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    So if we don't have an answer... we agree that a fetus is alive... and we know fetuses are human... shouldn't we err on the side of life?

    Machines are neither human nor alive...
     
  9. hoyt233

    hoyt233 GC Hall of Fame

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    Prattvile, AL-Go Lions!
    How can anyone view a 3D or 4D ultrasound of a baby in the womb and not come to the conclusion that it is a living human being.
     
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  10. gator_lawyer

    gator_lawyer Premium Member

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    There is no "not so fast." Your opinion doesn't dictate what Jewish people believe (who, of course, aren't a monolith). You tried to use the horror of the Holocaust to buttress your argument that we must consider fetuses to be persons or risk being like the Nazis. But you completely ignored the moral code used by many Jews in making that comparison.

    Your moral code comes from your religious beliefs. Other religions don't necessarily share those beliefs. People who aren't religious also don't necessarily share those beliefs. Many of us (including many Jews) don't consider fetuses to be persons until they're born (or at minimum viable). Trying to equate that to the Nazis is exactly why you're never going to convince us of anything. You are taking an extreme stance and using charged rhetoric. All you succeed in doing is alienating people who might actually be willing to compromise.

    BTW, while I have not practiced any religion in quite some time, I am a Jew if we use the Nazis' definition (and members of my extended family perished in the Holocaust).
     
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  11. gator_lawyer

    gator_lawyer Premium Member

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    At what point in the process? Once we get to and past viability, there's certainly an argument. Before viability, I don't see one.
     
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  12. gatorplank

    gatorplank GC Hall of Fame

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    The syllogism for killing group X is identitical:

    Group X does not consist of persons. Exterminating group X is therefore justified.

    Getting offended doesn’t change the identical nature of the syllogisms. How your view differs is a valid question.

    While we are at it: In certain areas of the Middle East they play cartoons depicting Jews as primates. Why do your religious beliefs about unborn babies not being persons get preferential over their view that Jews are not persons?
     
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  13. GatorJMDZ

    GatorJMDZ gatorjack VIP Member

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    If you think abortion is wrong don't have one. Beyond that, I truly don't care one iota what you think.

    When abortions were illegal, women of means always had access to clinically safe abortions...the physician merely came up with a diagnosis that required a D & C and it was done. Women who were not so fortunate were the ones forced to alternative methods, either self-induced or by some motel room "doctor."

    You will NEVER stop abortions from occurring in this country....efforts would be much better focused on education and readily available birth control means. According to the CDC, in the year before Roe v. Wade there were 130,000 illegal abortions in the US resulting in the death of 39 women....mostly black, mostly poor and most who had self-induced. Those numbers dropped to 17,000 and 5, respectively, the year after the decision.*

    If Roe v. Wade were overturned tomorrow, and the RED states made abortions illegal, women of means would still go to their doctors for "D & Cs," while less fortunate women would go to nearby states or even nearby countries where the procedure is legal. Abortion clinics would set up on the other side of state lines of states where abortions were illegal. Other than the deep south, most women wouldn't have to drive much more than a few hours to obtain a clinically safe abortion. And sadly, a couple of hundred thousand women would self-induce or go seek out the back room butchers.

    Funny how the overwhelming majority of posters who think they have the right to control a woman's body are men.

    * Illegal Abortions in the United States: 1972-1974 on JSTOR
     
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  14. nolancarey

    nolancarey GC Hall of Fame

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    The same applies to a tumor growing in a human body. I don't agree on erring on the side of life in all cases.
     
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  15. gatorplank

    gatorplank GC Hall of Fame

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    Not so fast. It does not undermine our position because the action would be taken in the spirit of what healthcare is, which is preserving life. Not every scenario can preserve both lives, and hard decisions have to be made about which life is to be preserved. Those are difficult decisions, and people have to live with those difficult decisions the rest of their lives.

    Kidnapping a man to sell him as a slave was a capital crime according to the Torah:

    "Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death. - Exodus 21:16

    Any Christian in any age is a hypocrite who would do such a thing. Debtors’ slavery was a little different as were slaves who were prisoners of war. But the American version of slavery carried with it a capital crime in the Old Testament for anyone who participated in it.

    Yeah, the Bible does not forbid all killing. It only forbids wrongful killing, which we call murder.
     
  16. gator_lawyer

    gator_lawyer Premium Member

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    The difference is that fetuses aren't actually persons. You could make this same argument with fingers, toes, dogs, cats, etc. All you have to claim is that you sincerely believe they are persons. Try a better argument. And I'm not offended. I'm calling you out for appropriating the pain and suffering of the Jewish people while simultaneously trying to paint many of them as Nazis for having different beliefs than you. It's gross.

    This is a silly question. We choose to disregard belief systems that are incompatible with societal views all the times. Pedophiles sincerely believe they should be able to have sex with children. Segregationists and slave-owners sincerely believed that The Bible justified owning black people as slaves and segregation. The Westboro Baptist Church believes a bunch of crazy things. Nobody is required to abide by them, just as nobody is required to abide by your beliefs that fetuses are babies. This isn't a theocracy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
  17. Gator715

    Gator715 GC Hall of Fame

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    You're really comparing a fetus with its own unique identity, DNA, heartbeat, and brain function to a tumor?

    An abortion is not like cutting off a limb... There's another being... another "person" inside of a pregnant woman...

    A tumor is neither alive nor human... In this context, it is merely a part of someone who is alive and human...
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
  18. gator_lawyer

    gator_lawyer Premium Member

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    You're choosing which life to save and which life to end. Basically, you're saying one life is more valuable than the other. In order for that to be the case, the fetus's life must be less valuable than the woman's.

    But while we're discussing people having to live with their decisions, let's see how women who made the decision to end their pregnancies feel:
    99% of Women Say They Feel Relief 5 Years After Abortion

    And yet the "Christians" who interpreted The Bible differently than you claimed that it justified their enslaving black people. Then, "Christians" who interpreted The Bible differently than you claimed that integration violated their sincerely held religious beliefs. And many "Christians" still justify discriminating against gay people (even when it hurts others) because of their sincerely held religious beliefs. I'll pass on getting morality lessons from Christians.

    Ah. So who gets to decide what's rightful and wrongful? Since you're invoking the Nazis, I'll point out that they thought their genocide to be righteous.
     
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  19. gatorplank

    gatorplank GC Hall of Fame

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    Why don’t we try this moral code for a week in the great state of California and see how it works out for them:

    If you don’t like X, then don’t do X. Otherwise shut up.
    If you don’t like child rape, then don’t do child rape. Otherwise shut up.

    If you don’t like to steal, then don’t steal. Otherwise shut up.

    If you don’t like murder, then don’t murder. Otherwise shut up.

    If you don’t like racism, then don’t be a racist. Otherwise shut up.

    If you don’t like identity theft, then don’t participate in identity theft. Otherwise shut up.

    Any takers California would be heaven on earth with this new more highly evolved system of morality?
     
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  20. Gator715

    Gator715 GC Hall of Fame

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    Funny how the entirety of people who dismiss the rights of the unborn as irrelevant are already born...

    Also, if I identified as a woman tomorrow, would my opinion suddenly become more valuable because I'm a woman?

    We will never stop murder in this country either... Does that mean we should legalize murder?
     
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