Bathroom controversy

I did. It is gross to pretend that transgender people are out there pretending to be trans so they can use the women's locker room. And if you're going to argue that's not your intent, then stop introducing that claim to these sorts of threads. Because that is very much what it implies.

 

It seems reasonable a woman would be uncomfortable with a biological male walking around naked in women’s bathroom.

And why are they showering at work?!?

 

Yeah, because when a person with the clothes/appearance of a man goes into a woman's bathroom, they aren't going to get harassed or attacked, and vice versa for a person with the clothes/appearance of a woman in a man's bathroom. I already posted an article of a trans man being beaten and arrested for using the bathroom that accorded with his sex at birth as he was told he must do.

 

For the record, I don't think that trans people are faking it. Not unless they have a fetish for being rediculed, which I doubt is the case. The same with gay folks. I don't think they do it for attention, they were born that way.

I also don't think that people are pretending to be trans to get a look inside the women's locker room.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's selfish. A trans male doesn't want to be uncomfortable, so they do something that results in way more people being uncomfortable.

 

Isnt anyone wanting a space for their own comfort being 'selfish' in the same way?

 

I owe you an apology, then. I read your comment as saying that people are claiming to be trans so they can use women's bathrooms/locker rooms. I must have misread it.

I still disagree with the point you're making. Trans people are at risk when they use the bathroom of their sex at birth. Their desire to use the bathroom corresponding with their gender is a combination of a genuine desire to simply be a woman or man like anybody else and self preservation. Their motives really aren't any different than why a cisgender woman wants to use the woman's restroom. I don't consider those motives to be selfish.

 

I thought there have been gyms that are entirely women-only and men are not permitted to join at all? If that's true, it seems that gyms are already permitted to discriminate on the basis of sex/gender. Are they required to allow trans women to join? Not sure if that's been litigated, but wouldn't similar arguments be made with a gym that allows both men and women to join but wishes to segregate the locker rooms areas?

I honestly don't know the current state of the law on these issues.

 

Hmmmm. Since these are shared spaces, I would think not. I'm not up to the complete history of locker rooms, but it seems like dividing them by sex would be the most logical way to do it.

I'm wondering if you had a gym, sports facility, etc and you had the traditional locker room separation for males and females and noted how many people in total use them, then closed both and built a bigger uni-sex locker room, if you would still have the same amount of people using the locker room. I would say no, you would see a decline in total usage. I think to get the total usage at it's highest, which most likely equates to the comfortability of the users of the locker rooms, is to have it split the way it is now, with a male and a female locker room. I also think if you took down the male/female signs, people would self-sort themselves and you would still end up with a male and female locker room. That, to me, tells me that the locker room separation is the way it should be, especially without have to build many more locker rooms.

 

Still waiting for you to post your source that backs up your claim that the trans woman had her junk out in front of the other woman.

 

The questions too be answered are numerous.....
" a naked dude in a woman's locker room"
If the push is to "Justify" how they identify by physical surgeries too add / remove parts, is that all that's required to accepted as "Male" or "Female"?. If so, how does that influence or change the rules for a person born Biologically "male" or "Female"?. It seems all we are trying to do is blur the obvious ( you can identify as whatever you wish, but it changes nothing but how you relate to society), and create different rules for those born biologically or those born via identifying as....
For me, if faced with the unimaginable hatred of my biological self, I don't see removing parts or adding parts as changing anything, and just because I "Identify" differently from my birth sex, it still only changes one thing,(how you relate to society). When science advances to the level of total sex transformation which renders you "biologically" male or female, will the world really be any more accepting?

 

Apology accepted, and it's fine if we disagree.

Thankfully I wasn't born that way, because that can't be an easy life. I say born that way, because again, I don't think this is something people choose to be. It's what they are.

 

I don't even know what equipment the transgender woman here has. No article makes mention of it. I would assume that she hasn't gone through bottom surgery because nobody has said she has, but I have no idea. How are you going to enforce your equipment rule? Genital checks at bathroom doors?

I am skeptical of this. The whole "kids identifying as cats" thing was a joke that some Republican boomers bought into and started spreading. I haven't seen a single confirmed example of it happening in actuality (at least in this country).

 

I went to one of the larger bathhouses in Hungary once, it had basically one big locker room, there were areas for men and women, but no barriers. On my way to the spa, I walked by a bunch of old Japanese women changing. I'm sure there was a way to get there without doing that, but I sure couldnt figure it out. Gendered facilities werent really a thing until Victorian times, so its not like its some kind of long standing thing. I think in general, the more prudish the culture, the more strict people's ideas are on it. Europeans seems a bit more grown up about it, though its not like its some kind of free for all over their either.

 

I don’t think their reasons for wanting to are selfish. I would bet if you ran a poll the vast majority of Americans would understand those concerns and empathize with them.
But the practical application is that you are knowingly shifting that burden of unmet needs to others (in a crowded locker room that can be many people) so that your needs are met. Same with Lia Thomas in swimming. The entire field of women is disadvantaged so that you can feel more comfortable. That is a selfish act by definition, even if that isn’t the intent.

 

Its always second hand isn't it?

 

I don’t have pictures to prove it, but the person who shared it is the nicest most tolerant person you will ever meet and in the 25 years I have known her, never told a single untruth. She would never disparage another human being. And none of that even really an exaggeration. She was 100 percent serious, was only talking about how hard it was to navigate these days.

 

There's always a first time for everything

 

I thought of this as well, and wondered if my thoughts of naturally separating themselves was more of learned trait, or something more natural.

 

Gospel music.

 

The problem is that no matter what you do, people are going to be uncomfortable, and not just trans people. Any more targeted ideas are basically unenforceable. With locker rooms, it's more understandable than bathrooms. I understand the concerns when a trans woman who hasn't had bottom surgery is walking around naked and agree that shouldn't happen. But it's a different story imo when there are individual showers (with some sort of door/curtain for obscuring one's self) and/or individual changing areas.