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Neil DeGrasse Tyson vs Ben Shapiro on transgenders in sports

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by 108, Mar 18, 2023.

  1. WESGATORS

    WESGATORS Moderator VIP Member

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    Where are you reading this? I haven't said anything about what's on the birth certificate from a sports competition perspective. You also haven't shared your view in how the lines should be drawn between men and women from a sports competition perspective. My point (opinion) is that the observable features/biological markers are more important than what feelings are expressed, again, from a sports competition perspective. While you have not expressed it, your comments lead me to believe that you think the decision should be entirely based on the athlete's feelings. If so, maybe we just agree to disagree.

    Go GATORS!
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  2. jhenderson251

    jhenderson251 Premium Member

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    Seems to me "conservatives" just want the government to solve another problem for them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Also seems to me like no liberals advocated that, and that per usual you are more interested in denigrating liberals with bad faith arguments instead of having an actual discussion.
     
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  3. okeechobee

    okeechobee GC Hall of Fame

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    It’s “rare” now, because only recently were we stupid enough to sanction the bs. Give it a few years. It will be a death blow to women’s sports, if it is allowed to go on with any legitimacy attached to it.
     
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  4. jjgator55

    jjgator55 GC Hall of Fame

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    I meant what I’m reading in this thread.

    See post #27

    This is like the whole being gay is a choice thing. A person born a male can choose to live their life as a man despite feeling that nature made a mistake, and live their life as a miserable person. Yes I get the whole “F*** your feelings” thing, but what people feel matter to those people. Besides if feelings shouldn’t matter then why use the feelings of cis females as an argument?

    My opinion is those who say a transsexual should under no circumstances be allowed to compete against women haven’t made a convincing case. I will say this as a concession. If a gender reassigned female, who has retained some male attributes, can be shown to be physically superior in every way to the cis females she’ll be competing against as a result of retaining those attributes, then I would concede that should probably disqualify her.
     
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  5. jhenderson251

    jhenderson251 Premium Member

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    I agree with this, again with the added opinion that, while I do not 100% trust appropriate sports' governing bodies to get these decisions correct (especially in the short term), I trust them to get it right for their sport more than I trust our government to get it right for every sport with sweeping legislation.

    Asking the government to intervene seems most likely to either have a liberal law with sweeping blanket permission for transgenders to compete, or a conservative law with a 100% ban. Neither government intervention provides for any nuance or allows the sports to determine what path best results in ensuring a fair playing field for allowed competitors.
     
  6. gator95

    gator95 GC Hall of Fame

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    Currently it doesn't equal a broad endangering of all women's sports. But just look at the last 5 years or so. We have had a Trans person win an NCAA title, A Trans cyclist won the female cycling World Championship, and here is an article showing 20 Trans winning championships. You think with the increase in people identifying as trans that this won't increase?

    These 20 trans women have won national or international competitions - Outsports
     
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  7. gator95

    gator95 GC Hall of Fame

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    Look on this board for the proof of who thinks the trans swimmer winning the NCAA title was fine with them. That in itself is the issue. I am more a libertarian but I have a daughter who plays sports and if this happened to her I would be furious. They made women's sports so they had a place they could compete with like minded competitors. That didn't happen in the case of Lia Thomas.

    And you were the one who brought politics into this discussing conservatives and liberals.
     
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  8. WESGATORS

    WESGATORS Moderator VIP Member

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    I don't believe it's like that at all. We don't divide sports teams based on sexual preference (which is entirely a decision one makes for his/herself, that is to say we have the freedom to pursue whomever we want, change or minds, and change them back again if we prefer)

    Feelings do matter, people are either picking sides based on the feelings of the women or the feelings of those claiming to *now be a woman.* If feelings didn't matter, we wouldn't divide sports based on gender, and it would be exclusively based on athletic ability. So nobody is explicitly saying "F*** your feelings." But necessarily, the side being asked to deal with it will feel like their feelings are not being respected.

    Our views are not substantially different. For me, I would just change "in every way" to "in any way." But again, that's just my opinion philosophically. I'm not interested in the legal aspect of any of this.

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  9. okeechobee

    okeechobee GC Hall of Fame

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    I miss the days when people would call a spade, a spade.
     
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  10. g8trjax

    g8trjax GC Hall of Fame

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    Now it's a girl with junk.
     
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  11. jjgator55

    jjgator55 GC Hall of Fame

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    You missed that point and it’s apparent you’ve decided not to see it, so nevermind.

    It’s a conundrum for sure. So what we have as a species is the some people’s feelings are more valuable than others, and some feelings like in sports are more valuable than in social Justice. We want women to be treated fairly in sports, but not when it comes to their reproductive choices. This is the way of our species, and those in power get to decide whose feelings and choices are valuable and whose can be rejected.[/QUOTE]


    Well, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that point.
     
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  12. jjgator55

    jjgator55 GC Hall of Fame

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    For being a male you sure do have a problem controlling your emotions.
     
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  13. Gatorhead

    Gatorhead GC Hall of Fame

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    A very difficult issue for liberals and conservatives alike.

    Regarding sports I tend to agree with the conservatives on the board in that, on the surface, it appears unfair to biologicaly born females to have to compete against transgender persons.
    (No offense Gator Lawyer)

    In terms of society - As many have posted I prefer to take a live and let live approach.

    In terms of being a father I struggle with it. While this may rankle, it is intellectually dishonest not to admit that pre-teens, teens and young adults will struggle with this lifestyle. There is not much shelter for youth, in particular, in school or community settings because youth are particularily ...............cruel creatures............, when confronted with non-traditional things. Everyone on this board knows that.

    I do believe that persons of all creeds, religons, colors and sexual orientations deserve to be treated with respect.

    I also feared, and this is certainly coming true, that Christians, and conservatives, particularily the more militant ones, would react in hostile, intolerant, crass and at times violent ways.

    Recent GOP actions and policies are becoming increasingly more hostile. Ron DeSantis anyone? Having said that I certainly have empathy for straight parents not wanting their children groomed, conditioned or encouraged in school, to adopt that lifestyle.

    Bill Clintons "don't ask / don't tell" with the military had some logic and merit behind it IMO.

    Tough deal all the way around. I will vote to protect LGBTQ civil rights, but that does not mean I will be indulging in any of those activities.........because I am straight and I like females.
     
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  14. gator95

    gator95 GC Hall of Fame

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    LOL, a sexist joke. Didn’t see that coming…
     
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  15. okeechobee

    okeechobee GC Hall of Fame

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    Amazing that you feel you have to type out all of this simply to justify your position that biological men should not be able to compete in women’s sports. People have been so gaslighted on this topic, it’s unbelievable.
     
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  16. jjgator55

    jjgator55 GC Hall of Fame

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    It’s not a joke. Women like a man who can control himself. It shows maturity and emotional stability.
     
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  17. Sohogator

    Sohogator GC Hall of Fame

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    Well most women but even so icells can’t land those either.

    LOL
     
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  18. gator95

    gator95 GC Hall of Fame

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    Emotional stability being that you support trans swimmers beating biological women? I’d rather be unstable than take that sexist belief.
     
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  19. jjgator55

    jjgator55 GC Hall of Fame

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    Delicate little flower aren’t you. For someone belonging to a group that likes to brag about how “manly” they are, the tough guys, you certainly don’t come across as poster boy material.
     
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  20. phatGator

    phatGator GC Hall of Fame

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    Are you sure that’s Lea Thomas? She swam for Penn not the University of NS. .