Stokes no longer a Gator

If it's as constant and common as you claim it be, seems like you could find a better link than that one ...

 

I prefer “anonymous sources familiar with the situation.”

 

Our primarily capitalist system has lead to the most prosperous economy and military the world has ever seen.

If anything, America's on the cutting edge (which is what capitalism incentivizes). Ironically, socialist-based policies stifle incentives to innovate.

People on the left generally have it backwards. Government is a blunt instrument and businesses can be surgical and rapid-changing when their bottom lines depend on it. Countries are generally on the cutting edge when they stay out of the way of business and they incentivize entrepreneurship and innovation in the private sector, not when they just reallocate money for purposes of equity to the point where business-owners lose all incentive to take risks and innovate.

The problem is that the line you just gave me is entirely arbitrary.

Minimized how much?
What does "true meritocracy" look like? Have we ever seen it before? Has any country ever seen it before?
How many social safety nets would be sufficient?

 

You really cannot compare anything to the Nazis. No group in modern history is associated with their worst evils which happens to be the worst evils in recent history, like the Nazis.

You're asking the wrong question.

You shouldn't be asking "what Confederate iconography means?" You should be asking, "what does Confederate iconography mean to the people who support it and why does it mean that?"

The former question is important as to whether we should use Confederate iconography, but not in judging the people who favor it. The latter question contextualizes everything.

 

I can agree with this premise. I grew up in a trailer, five of us in a two BR 10’x50’ Rollohome. Fortunately, my home was humble but not busted. Thanks to the Air Force our trailer followed us from NM to ONT to FL to Quebec and back to FL. After all that time, dad only made it to SSGT. I made my own toy guns from scraps. I had to collect aluminum cans to buy a bike at the BX. When my buds (several darker completed than me) whose dads were AF brass bought them disco shirts for $12, my mom made my only one out of $3 worth of polyester and thread. So I could have bell bottoms like all the other kids, mom opened the seams of my hand me down (from another family, I was the oldest in mine) jeans and sewed inserts in. Took a couple extra years at UF to get my Eng degree because I had to take a few semesters off to earn enough to continue the following semesters. I am not complaining, just confirming that hard work, decency, manners, and a little optimism can go a long way toward changing someone’s situation. All that to state that firm, fair and consistent application of a hand up is much more effective than a hand out.

 

Yes, and so imagine how much anti-Blackness still exists in a country where almost none of the actions Germany took to make amends to the Jewish in Germany were taken here to make amends to the enslaved and their descendants? (and where the actions that did take place only did so through bloodshed and sacrifice from 1865 to 1965. Over that 100 years, generations of people were systematically held back and disenfranchised). The ramifications of that delayed equality cannot be understated.

Your experience in Germany shows me that Germany's response to its sins was a good thing; there are still sundown towns in this country 150 years on, can you imagine what it was like to be Black in Mississippi in 1920? That's a full 55 years post-the end of the Civil War. You know what happened within that year? The Tulsa Race Massacre of 1921, where a generation of accumulated Black wealth was wiped out. It was not an isolated incident.

Look, we're closer on this than we are apart. One of my earliest business partners was a Jewish guy who in name and appearance didn't appear as such (we're still tight to this day). I'll never forget having drinks at a work conference and a guy we'd only met that weekend complaining about how another guy tried to "Jew him out of" deal. I felt for my buddy and was ready to beat the shit outta this other guy; I very quickly pivoted to keeping my friend from beating the shit outta this other guy.

It was the first time he'd ever had an experience like this. In reflection, it made him much more empathetic to the discussion you and I are having right now and his point of view on my feelings in like situations.

 

What's happening in America today? The one thing all of these people have in common is a drive to do better. Not only for themselves but for others as well. All of these people have found a niche in society and exploited it through hard work, determination and integration. These people were not rich to start with nor did they come from wealthy backgrounds. What is not discussed in the documentary but I would bet is they valued education most of all or at the very least came from a family that prioritized education. I'd also bet the N word is not spoken in the house and they probably don't associate with anyone that uses it regardless of race or ethnic background.

America's Black upper class – Rich, successful and empowered | DW Documentary

 

??? Do you even understand the reference? Your reply sounds like you do not.

 

similar story but with busted home, single Mom, absentee sperm donor added in. Lived in a station wagon for 9 months at one time in jr high and roach infested public housing at others. First in family to even apply to college. 8 years to get through engineering because I had little to no background from the backwoods high school I attended (trig 2 was most advanced math class offered, no chemistry, no physics) and took several semesters off to work because I had to eat and didn't want to borrow a bunch of money. Grades were a challenge when you were working 30 - 40 hours a week at 84 lumber making deliveries and loading trucks late nights for morning crew to make deliveries. Bad habits and skirt chasing when I left 84 lumber and started shucking at CJ's didn't help to be honest. Just all part of the process I guess.

 

They were “cancelled” by the conservatives for expressing an opinion. End of story.
The same “cancel culture” the right wing can’t help but constantly whine about….THEY started that trend with the Dixie Chicks situation.

 

From above: "If you really feel reparations are due to this generation for the sins of the past than I suggest you seek it from the African Nations whose Black kings and war lords rounded up their own citizens and enriched themselves by selling them to the White slave traders. I submit to you that just blaming White people is not the answer."

I have to speak to this part. It's not an argument I see often but it does have validity. To a point.

The transatlantic slave trade featured African kingdoms trading enslaved africans to colonizing powers for export to foreign lands as slave labor. The wealth generated by the trade for African kingdoms stopped here, at the point of sell.

Slave traders then transported and sold, for a price, these slaves, into a situation of employment for which they received no compensation nor possessions. The enslaved themselves then, horrifically, gave birth to more souls who were either sold for a price or worked to generate more income. Essentially, the African kingdoms sold colonizers human beings. Those human beings were then sold again and essentially transformed into tractors and other forms of equipment, and that equipment was bred to beget other equipment, and NONE of that equity extracted from the enterprise went to the enslaved nor, just being completely fact-based here, to the African kingdom who sold the soul into slavery. And worse, the human enslaved were treated as equipments, held without nurture, given language purely as a function of labor communication; denied access to schooling, subjected to the most heinous tortures, punished for even glancing at text let alone learning to read; bred and separated and bred and separated.

In the conversation of reparative justice, the balance of which entity robbed the enslaved without recompense is much, much more in the hand of the colonizing entity than the African kingdom; there simply is no comparison. And what I'm saying is not opinion. This is not a take. It's FACT.

And those facts are unique to THIS group of people -- families separated, constant torture and rape, denial to assets generated by labor, excluded from education for centuries and then targeted through shady sharecropping practices, redlining, redistricting, voter suppression, the whole gamut: NONE of this is pathology. Nearly all of it is traceable and even the simplest endeavors to address it (say, affirmative action) are met with ridicule and disdain.

 

I cannot discount your experiences and yes there are some clear differences between our two situations. I agree we have more in common with this issue than differences. I did not share with you my story to try and compare it to yours but just to let you know you are not alone. Racism goes so much beyond just Black and White. I feel the pain in your story and I also believe since you lived it the wounds are still very fresh. I did not live my Grandfathers story, I was a descendent of his story which is probably why I was able to move to and live in Germany where my grandfather could never have gone back. I admire your achievements and I could see myself as your Jewish friend having drinks and enjoying life together. I hope we can create a world where stories like yours are far in the rear view mirror. I am hopeful that your grandchildren can look at a White person and not see an oppressor just as I looked at my German neighbors and did not see a Nazi. Unfortunately this will be a longer journey because there is much more history to it. The simple point I have been trying to make is that America has come a long way. 30 years ago you probably never would have been able to fight your way out of your situation. We must embrace your story and constantly create more and more of them. At some point we must acknowledge our advancements while still stiving for improvement. I wish you nothing but the best of times for you and your future generations.

 

Your point is well taken. My point is that there were many Blacks that helped perpetrate slavery and there were many Whites even back then that lost their lives in an attempt to fight back against this horrific atrocity. The story runs deep. My problem with reparations is how it would work. I do not believe in just giving money to every Black person and saying sorry for the deeds of my ancestors. Handouts are like Heroine, once you get them you crave more. I would suggest to you that the enormous contributions to Black Lives Matter would fall into the reparations category. The problem is that many of the leaders of that organization did nothing but line there own pockets and did not use it on the Black community that needed it the most. The money should go to Black leaders with good intentions who want to use it to improve the lives of disadvantaged children like you once were. Reparations can take many forms. If there are going to be any in my opinion it is up to strong well intentioned Black leaders to create programs to help the people that need it the most. That would be a step forward in my opinion.

 

The standard answer would be uhhh... because the white defensive back can just go get a bank loan and start a successful business.

 

They put their politics before their fans and got burnt. Pretty stupid to tell a crowd of 20,000 people, 75% of which likely voted for Bush, that Bush sucks.

 

I told you White people were being asked to bend a knee and ask forgiveness to Black America. You didn't believe me. I sent you a link to prove it but now that isn't good enough for you. Where do you think those people got the idea to do it. Have you really not seen footage of Black mobs intimidating White people to do exactly that. If you need more proof than do you own research. This was just a simple statement of fact. Take it for what its worth to you.

 

Our family homesteaded several thousand acres in Clay County along the shores of Black Creek. The whole family was involved in timber cutting from the property and running sawmills producing lumber. The overwhelming majority of the adult and sub adult men were killed in the battle of Olustee when they were summoned to help stop the northern army from looting and burning everything they could to try and remove resources from the rebel army.

Our family owned no slaves, didn't enlist in the army, but went to fight to try and prevent the destruction of everything they had.

Shortly thereafter, the family lost control of the land because there was nobody to work and generate income to help maintain the fledgling lumber business.

In short, our family lost our generational wealth to the civil war trying to prevent the scorched earth campaign from reaching their homestead. I imagine my life would have been substantially different if our family would have maintained control of that large swarth of property. Should we be due reparations for our loss?

Should the entire indigenous population of America be given significant reparations for all the injustices they suffered?

I guess my point is that there are countless groups of people who have suffered terribly at the hands of other people. Where do you draw the line as to who is owed what?

 

not if he is competing for gubmnt projects that give bonus points for minority ownership and a minority (black, cuban, columbian, Puerto Rican, female, etc) architecture firm goes for the same work

 

I don't think most proponents of DeSantis-like policy for schools want all conversations of America's racial past to stop and I respectfully disagree that we "white-washed" our history regarding race. I know anecdotes are supposed to be a big no-no, but the most basic levels of social studies/history at like elementary school level boils down America into the following categories:
1. The Birth of America including the Revolutionary War, the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution.
2. The Civil War
3. WWII
4. The Civil Rights Movement

What people are angry about is things like subconscious bias training that is probably just as likely to impute prejudice as it is to cure it, and they are mad about these victimhood hierarchies where straight White males have unearned advantages of sorts that make them start life off on third base. You're not directly asking straight White males to apologize for past transgressions from before they were born, but you're imputing false characterizations of their circumstances where if they buy it, they would naturally feel like they owe marginalized communities something, and that their successes aren't earned even if they are.

It would have an even more detrimental effect on communities labeled as marginalized because they'll develop this chip on their shoulder, distrust everyone, think that the world is out to get them, and blame everyone but themselves for their failures. If there's any psyche that breeds failure it's that.

 

Based on how things turned out, and sheerly how long American Blacks with ancestry tied to slavery have been here as opposed to Africa, sure.

But I don't think that's conducting the analysis properly. To do so, you'd have to compare circumstances to African slaves who came here to African slaves had they stayed in Africa.

That's obviously not to absolve the evils of slavery here. But if we're having the conversation of "which would have been worse," I think we need an apples to apples comparison and what that looks like is slavery and circumstances in America compared to slavery and circumstances in Africa.