POLL: Results of the Too Hot Panel on Gun VIolence (Please vote)

I want you all to know I carefully considered the consequences of violating the spirit and tradition of Too Hot by:
1. Reading what someone said on here
2. Changing my mind/vote.

If you need me, I will be over on the James Webb telescope thread watching to see if the fabric of the universe holds.

 

I voted no.

I’m okay with some of them, but 6 and 7 are absolute non-starters for me while 2 is not terribly far from it.

 

This is why muzzle velocities need to be limited. Change the ammo to reduce the destructive capacity if you insist on allowing ar15 style weapons

A surgeon explains why AR-15-style rifles are so deadly

semi-automatic weapon like an AR-15-style one automatically reloads after each shot, and can hold around 30 bullets before the shooter needs to reload the gun. Besides its efficiency, what makes an AR-15-style rifle dangerous is that it has a higher muzzle velocity, meaning that a bullet travels nearly 3,000 feet per second. For comparison, a 9-millimeter handgun's bullets travel at 1,200 feet per second.
Dr. Joseph Sakran, director of emergency general surgery at Johns Hopkins Hospital and a gun violence survivor, told Salon in an interview to think about the injuries sustained by an AR-15-style rifle as if there are two types of cavities created by the weapon.
"Depending upon the trajectory, if it goes through a named artery or a vital organ, you can imagine that trajectory of simply that bullet and that permanent cavity is going to cause life threatening damage," Sakran said. The second cavity he likened to when a big boat leaves behind a bumpy wake in a lake. "You have these shaft bullets that are causing essentially a wake flush display of energy on the surrounding tissue, causing this temporary cavity that causes a significant blast injury that can be very, very deadly and cause significant injury."
Sakran said when treating patients who have been shot with AR-15-style guns, the "destruction is much greater" than that caused by a handgun. Sakran said body tissue can be so "destroyed and pulverized" that it is hard to treat.

 

Glad we had a surgeon to tell us what is blatantly obvious by looking at them: rifle and pistol bullets work differently from one another.

A pistol cartridge is quite limited in how much powder it can hold, so bullet designers compensate by using short, fat, heavy bullets to still get a lot of terminal energy (and generally use some sort of expanding round to make sure the bullet dumps that energy and makes a big wound).

Rifle cartridges, on the other hand, can hold much more powder because the case does not need to be tiny. Because they’ve got substantially more velocity to work with in the F=m*a equation, cartridge designers can use longer, thinner, lighter bullets that stabilize better and fly straighter for longer while still having the same or more total terminal energy.

If you artificially cap muzzle velocity, bullet designers will just compensate the same way they did when the available technology limited muzzle velocity (i.e. in the days of black powder, which produces much less energy than smokeless powder): they’ll design rounds to use much larger caliber bullets.

 

I voted no. I might have been able to support the compromises, but putting more cops in schools is a deal breaker for me (absent better gun safety reforms).

 

I voted no because it's an all or nothing poll. I do agree on some of them but not all. Especially the national registry is a hard no because anyone with common sense knows that criminals won't ever register their guns. I am all for taking guns from the criminals first before the rights of law abiding gun owners gets even discussed. After taking guns from the criminals first then get back to me on the rest.

 

it isn't all rifles. Nobody would ever use an AR (or similar high velocity, destructive impact) to hunt with, too much destruction of the game you are trying to bag and freeze. On the other hand, it is the weapon/style of choice for the military and others when killing is the primary objective.

Let's define a limit a destructive capacity that a bullet can deliver, combine mass and acceleration, and cap it to prevent these catastrophic type wounds.

This is analogous to a fire cracker and a stick of dynamite. One is legal and enjoyed (mostly), the other is, and should be, strictly regulated due to the difference in destructive capacity.

Do you find the status quo acceptable? WHat would you propose to change it?

 

It is all rifles.

A standard .223/5.56 55 or 62 grain round has a muzzle velocity of right around 3,000 FPS.

The .30-06 150 grain ballistic silver tip I use as my everyday deer round has a muzzle velocity of 2,900 FPS.

And if you look at muzzle energy instead of only velocity, the .30-06 suddenly dwarfs the .223 because the bullet weighs three times as much. The .223 has muzzle energy of about 1,300 ft/lbs. The muzzle energy from my .30-06 deer ammo absolutely dwarfs that and checks in at around 2,800 ft/lbs.

And from someone who has shot animals with both .223 and traditional “hunting rounds,” I can guarantee you that the “hunting rounds” are making much bigger holes and tearing up much more meat.

.223 isn’t traditionally used for hunting because it is marginally underpowered, not because it is some magical “destroys everything in its path” bullet.

That’s my entire point - the damage a .223 does only looks to be on an order of magnitude different if you are comparing it to non-magnum pistol cartridges, which is what the very article you quoted did. It doesn’t say the .223 is some uniquely dangerous round amongst rifle cartridges, it says it causes more damage than a 9mm handgun round. Well no kidding, that should be patently obvious.

 

Let's blame a single round, which causes around 500 homicides per year out of 300+ million. Approximately the same number of homicides as hammers. But since I won't change your mind, and you won't change mine, Let's Go Gators!

 

As an average citizen, I'm thoroughly offended to be compared to FSU fans.

 

Sorry
I meant to point out the well known fact that FSU fans are below average intelligence. Not compare them to any non mouth breathing human with an iota of common sense or morals.

 

For hunting deer I use a 165 grain with a polymer tip .308 caliber bullet traveling at 2800 FPS and unless you are a bad shot, ergo gut shoot a deer or it it’s hams you will damage a good portion of the meat. The deer will suffer unless you track it. Your deer will go down fast with a heart/ lung/shoulder/ neck shot. Most deer shots I’ve taken at are between 100-200 meters.

A 22-250 round is a .22 and can knock a deer out with correct shot placement. Those rounds travel at about 4000 fps. I know hunters who hunt with AR10s and Caliber variations of the AR15 platform. You appear not to be a hunter so I find your assertions humorous.

I give you a pistol drill designed by the Rhodesians. The Mozambique drill. 2 to the chest one to the head, begin to bleed out than sever the brain. For more bleeding out options with a pistol try the groin/upper thigh options.

AR semi, M4/M16 3 round burst/auto. AR civilian, M4/M16 combat

 

I voted yes but I had problems with many items.

-Aren’t fully automatic and sub machine guns already illegal?

- In large schools like many high schools having only one entry point is logistically impossible.

- I’m not sure more SROs are a good cost benefit. They clearly don’t stop school shootings.

I do support federal registry and 21 minimum, and any sort of magazine limits.

I’ll take the bad with the good. I think it is a fairly weak and ineffective proposal but better than nothing.

 

I waited to give my opinion on this proposal, since I was a panel member. You might be surprised to know that I voted “no”. It doesn’t go far enough, IMO, but it just shows how when you have to compromise, sometimes neither side is happy with the end result. I didn’t see my job as trying to force my agenda, but to see what a collection of panelists with different views would come up with. I think that this experiment showed just how hard it is to get meaningful legislation passed.

Personally, I don’t want assault rifles in any civilian’s hands, and that goes for the semi-automatic variants as well. I want a full ban. I also don’t want handguns on the street, but I could live with a 3-5 round magazine max. Even still, we need lifetime firearm bans for any violent crime arrests, mental health issues, or felons of any type. Age of ownership should be 25+.

As you can see, my views are unrealistic in our current climate. I do recognize this fact.

 

Thanks for your comments. I also was not satisfied with the results as you can see from my comments above. I think the panel paralleled what happened in Congress. When you have a 50/50 split in ideology it’s very difficult to get real results. It’s an indictment on the process of creating and passing legislation. Very difficult on positions that have such strong division between opposing parties.

 

The difference is I voted yes, because there were a few incrementally good things. While my feelings are similar to yours I think that fact that people will repeatedly reject the fair to good, because it isn’t good to great, is part of the root of our problems and why little gets done. It once wasn’t that way.

Compromising is a behavior and a habit, and a good faith gesture to try to work together. If you don’t practice it, we won’t get good at it.

 

That is quite the soapbox you are standing on, my friend. I am a compromiser. I think my post history here demonstrates that fact. Voting against a particular proposal does not make me a generally uncompromising person.

 

Not to mention it could conceivably cause even more deaths. There's an argument to be made that one is more likely to die from being shot with a .22 than with a 9mm because of the energy difference. Sure the 9mm has way more knock down power, but the .22 round has the potential to do far more damage once it penetrates because it's much more likely to ricochet inside a target.

 

100%. Trying to turn schools into fortresses doesn't solve the root cause of this issue, which is crazy people having easy access to guns.