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War in Ukraine

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by PITBOSS, Jan 21, 2022.

  1. uftaipan

    uftaipan GC Hall of Fame

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    Whoever you’re responding to likely does not accept ISW as a valid source. It’s sort of like citing radiometric dating data to a Young Earth Creationist. I’m not sure how one argues against “Carbon 14 dating is a trick of the Devil! You can’t trust it! It proves nothing!”
     
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  2. uftaipan

    uftaipan GC Hall of Fame

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    Huh. I thought we were going to go with ye olde “Yeah, well, in modern warfare, ‘air superiority’ is not really a thing” canard.*

    * That Israel just pulled off the “air superiority” thing, with Western equipment against Russian equipment 1000 miles and two unallied countries away from its home bases, is not relevant because it does not fit the narrative.
     
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  3. CaptUSMCNole

    CaptUSMCNole Premium Member

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    It’s funny how certain aspects of combat are “no longer a thing” when the Russians cannot achieve them when they go up against our 30 year old tech.But the moment our more recent and other 30 year old tech goes into battle, they are able to achieve those things that are supposedly no longer possible.
     
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  4. uftaipan

    uftaipan GC Hall of Fame

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    Indeed. Air superiority is no longer a thing. Combined arms is no longer a thing. Maneuver is no longer a thing. Centers of gravity and critical vulnerabilities are no longer a thing. Strategic logistics is no longer a thing. Integrated targeting and intelligence processes are no longer a thing. Disciplined initiative is no longer a thing …
     
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  5. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

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    I didn’t realize they were this big!

     
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  6. VAg8r1

    VAg8r1 GC Hall of Fame

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    Donald Trump blasts "a lot of bullsh*t" from Putin
    Anyone willing to wager whether Trump will go beyond verbal criticism of Putin and actually ramp up military assistance to Ukraine including providing Ukraine with more air defense assets as well as other military equipment? Maybe it's just me although Trump talks a good game my guess is that he is still so intimidated by Putin that he doesn't actually take substantive action. Reversing what Bill said in another thread, unlike Joe Biden when it comes to Vladimir Putin Trump lacks the balls to stand up to the Russian.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2025 at 1:55 PM
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  7. PITBOSS

    PITBOSS GC Hall of Fame

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    i wish we knew why Trump is so reluctant. So far he isn’t updating sanctions which is needed as Russia changes methods to an acquire materials. Or letting Ukraine buy patriots that will help save lives.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2025 at 3:18 PM
  8. VAg8r1

    VAg8r1 GC Hall of Fame

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    Two explanations and they're not mutually exclusive. One is that Putin really does have something on Trump that would embarrass him personally, maybe it's the so called "pee tape" mentioned in the Steele dozier or maybe it's something else. The other explanation is that Putin has stronger personality than Trump and the Donald is simply intimidated by him. It's been frequently said the Donald Trump is a weak man pretending to be a strong man, both senses of the term.
     
  9. homer

    homer GC Hall of Fame

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  10. VAg8r1

    VAg8r1 GC Hall of Fame

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    Was going to post the same. I have to admit that I was very pleasantly surprised. Now the question is to what extent will Trump resume the arms shipments and will he continue to do so until Putin agrees to a ceasefire, complies with the ceasefire and seriously negotiates for an end to hostilities rather than conditioning an end to war upon near total capitulation by Ukraine.
     
  11. thomadm

    thomadm VIP Member

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    Who knows what's in that small brain of his. If I were in his position, I'd threaten Putins life and potentially bomb Russian forces in eastern Ukraine, which was our original agreement between Russia and the US before Putin came to power.
     
  12. uftaipan

    uftaipan GC Hall of Fame

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    Emotionally, I agree with the sentiment. But our “original agreement,” most certainly did not specify the use of armed force against Russia to protect Ukraine’s sovereignty. President Clinton did not have the authority to sign up future generations for war by executive agreement. That would have taken a treaty that specified war powers as the North Atlantic Treaty does.
     
  13. thomadm

    thomadm VIP Member

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    That may be true, but the intent was to keep Ukraine intact and neutral. Once Russian marched on their soil in 2014, we should have sent 100 tomahawks into Crimeia. Obviously it's too late for that, but given the situation where diplomatic efforts have failed, force is necessary.
     
  14. CaptUSMCNole

    CaptUSMCNole Premium Member

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    Come on, the Steele Dossier has been disproven for over 7 years at this point.

    I think the issue is that Trump wants to get Russia to the bargaining table. Trump can force the Ukrainians to make a deal but he cannot force Russia to make one. I think this is his way of still trying to figure out how much carrot and how much stick he needs to make Putin be willing to take a deal.
     
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  15. demosthenes

    demosthenes Premium Member

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    And the deal you’re speaking of will certainly be a terrible one for Ukraine.
     
  16. okeechobee

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    The answer is obvious. We gotta prop up the 2nd world, rife with corruption “democracy,” no matter the cost.
     
  17. demosthenes

    demosthenes Premium Member

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    Progress isn’t instantaneous and they’ve made massive strides. Estonia made monumental strides from being one of the most corrupt countries coming out of the Soviet Union to now one of the least, and Ukraine is on its way. The sad thing is that you’re siding with an anti-democratic militaristic imperialist bully that is the source of whatever corruption remains in Ukraine.
     
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  18. CaptUSMCNole

    CaptUSMCNole Premium Member

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    There are no good deals to be had at this point. Just options that start at bad and go to terrible.
     
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  19. demosthenes

    demosthenes Premium Member

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    That’s only because we want to use pillows swung while pinched between two fingers.
     
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  20. uftaipan

    uftaipan GC Hall of Fame

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    That is true. But any deal short of full restoration of its lands, war reparations, and a Nuremberg-style accountability for Russia's civil and military leadership is a terrible deal for Ukraine. I want to see Ukraine get all of those things, but they are not likely (deliberately understated) through negotiation. I think it is possible (though very risky) in terms of means and ways to achieve those ends, but neither the left nor the right in this country is willing to do it. That leaves a negotiated peace as the only acceptable outcome for the American people, and any negotiated peace is going to leave Russia with more than it deserves and Ukraine with less than it deserves. The only question is the matter of degree.