Israel gives Hamas a deadline

Where in this thread was complacency to terrorism advocated? Of course we can’t be complacent and yes Israel let their guard down and there is evidence that Bibi was at best responsible for negligence and at worst unwittingly complicit in the attacks. Bibi has a lot to answer for.

But that in no way equivocates what Hamas did, and how Hamas is a terrorist group with broad support. On one hand you seem to acknowledge the Palestinian support for Hamas terrorists, but then characterize the war against the terrorists and resulting collateral damage as an ethnic genocide.

I’d call it defending yourself with collateral damage that is not at all disproportionate to most military responses.

Again what does that have to do with the issue? If millions of people call for eradication of Jews would you call for it to, just because they are? Of course you wouldn’t.

Also the regions geopolitics have changed with several middle eastern nations wanting to have alliances with Israel.

So again your position seems to be unless you can 100% eradicate all terrorists any military effort against terrorists are ineffective. This is against all evidence.

 

I will agree that terrorism definition can be subjective depending on the situation. But when you have a group that worships death and makes the killing of innocent civilians the goal - and not just killing, but intentionally barbaric tactics - that is unique.

Ultimately it gets down to whether we or Israel can peacefully coexist with such people. The evidence says no.

Nonethless the efforts have been to kill Hamas, not civilians. The civilians are collateral damage. The fact that Hamas hides behind civilians makes it harder. Israel can fight back or they can throw up their hands and say oh look, we can’t attack them because their military headquarters is in a hospital. Oh well!

 

Azcat, IMO,conflates western idealism with Middle Eastern doctrine. His heart’s in the right place, and if he was talking to a westerner, his points would be terrific. But I truly think he doesn’t understand the mindset of someone indoctrinated from birth into believing Israel and Israelis should be eradicated, literally and unconditionally.

The only end to the perpetual fight for an Israel’s existence will come when Arab leaders change their educational indoctrination and let their people know Israel had a place and is here to stay.

Until that time, Israel either defends itself or succumbs to the Palestinian indoctrination. And Israel has learned, indeed was born,through the lessons of cremation of 6 million.

I don’t care how phenomenal the PLO PR is, and their lies are the best in class. But …

Never again

 

Id say most of this is because there are a lot more Muslims than Jews and the countries screaming the loudest have a much greater proportionate population of Muslims. I don’t think we succomb to the mob.

 

I understand ME doctrine just fine. And my argument is that doctrine cannot be defeated by military might alone. Nor can it be defeated by outside influence. ME doctrine must be defeated from within first and foremost.

If terrorism doctrine could be eradicated by military might alone, Israel would have figured it out by now. And the US would have figured out how to have defeated the Vietcong. The Israelis also understand the effectiveness of terrorism. Before Israel was a country, the Jews were the terrorists.

I'm not saying the Israelis shouldn't defend themselves. Or launch retaliatory strikes. But it's never going to be a knockout blow. It's just not possible. If it was, the Israelis would have figured it out by now.

 

So you’ve characterized Israel’s actions as ethnic cleansing, I assume that means you don’t approve of its actions. Same question as I asked WPB - what do you think Israel should have done in the face on 10/7?

 

Israel should have the right to defend herself. And retaliate after attacks. But there have been times when Israel has gone too far. And there have been too many Israeli atrocities against Palestinians just as there have been too many against Israelis done by Hamas.

Israel and far right American Jews need to realize they can't beat Hamas by military might alone. And the more Palestinian civilians are killed, the more future Hamas fighters are born. Been this way for decades, only Hamas used to be called the PLO. Same fight. Same people. Same results. Wash, rinse, repeat.

There will only be peace if one of two things happen. One, a side wins, and many innocent people suffer and die. Or two, a Palestinian leader or group says enough, and demands peace for Palestine and Israel. And last time this happened under Arafat, the Palestinians chose more war.

Israel could possibly deal Hamas a death blow, but it would trigger an uproar of genocide from the Middle East. It's the victory worth it if the rest of the region declares war again on Israel?

Best Israel van do is stay vigilant to thwart future attacks, keep retaliation down to minimal response, and encourage peace in the region. If there was a pure military solution, don't you think Israel would've figured it out by now? It's a no win scenario where they can't afford to lose either. But it's what they have to deal with.

 

Agree, BUT when someone in turn calls Israel defending itself genocide, then I'm going to call a spade a spade. The only party in this that wants genocide is Hamas.

 

C'mon, you cant possibly believe this. They've bombed literally anything standing in Gaza. Killed aid workers, children, non-Palestinians, doctors ... Israel has used human shields, raped prisoners, done summary executions ... literally everything Hamas has done (and stacked up far more bodies) ... the people you say "worship death." How many times can you get suckered with the "collateral damage" claim ... are you really that gullible? I dont think you are, I think people just cant admit to what is happening. And I get it, its hard to let go of an idea you had about something. That is why most genocides happen, its so horrific you cant allow yourself to believe it. Like the far-right of the Israeli government is more sober about what they are doing than their American supporters who still have their mind in 1967. Israel has a government of "death worshiping" fascists too if we are going to throw around that term. Its the culmination of all identitarian nationalistic ideologies ... us vs. them.

 

So it sounds like your solution is let them keep firing rockets and hope for the best. You wouldn’t get my vote as a leader.

It’s just so weird that with people such as yourself with Israel, it is always “they have a right to defend themselves, but….” You know very well that if this happened to the US we would respond with all hell and fury.

You reference “atrocities” but as far as I know it’s all been in the course of war and is collateral damage or very occasional accident which happens in the fog of war.

Is it your belief that the Israelis response has been much greater than any of the US historical responses for acts of terrorism?

You have this default defeatist mode of “it’s never going to completely stop so they shouldn’t try and just accept ongoing acts of terrorism”. However I doubt that is a standard you would hold any other country too, so I don’t know why you think Israel is special in having to put up with it.

 

It's complicated. The terrorists Israel has to deal with are their neighbors. The terrorists the US has to deal with, fortunately, live halfway around the world. It would be different if the indigenous persons in the US and people of Mexican heritage were lobbying rockets to try and get their land back. And certainly there have been riots and race issues here in the US, but nothing like what the PLO and Hamas have done over the years. And fortunately, Native Americans and Mexican Americans have accepted the reality that America isn't going away, and it's better to improve your life within the confines of the US, rather than fight it. Maybe, one day, the Palestinians will accept the fact Israel isn't going away, and instead of continually fighting a losing battle, the better idea is accept reality and make the most of what is available.

But that day hasn't come yet. Nor may it ever. The Palestinians had a chance ~25 years ago with Arafat, who understood he was never going to win. He negotiated a peace that instead of accepting, the Palestinians rejected and launched the second Infadata. It ended the PLO's power and begat the rise of Hamas.

So what are Israel's real options? if there was a pure military solution, why haven't they figured it out and perfected it? Israel could wipe out Hamas, but the collateral, civilian damage would be very high. Especially when it's impossible to distinguish between Palestinians who are Hamas, and those who just support Hamas but aren't members. Israel would have to eliminate both just to be sure. The blowback from this kind of action would be huge. And the entire world would accuse Israel, the Jews, of ethnic cleansing, and it would potentially isolate Israel. US support of Israel is already wavering.

It puts Israel in a bind. A military victory solution creates more problems then they solve, and isn't easy to attain. They must defend themselves and their citizens, but where does the line between defense and offense lie? Their best best is remain vigilant, try to stop attacks before they start, and try not to over-react. I know it's easy to say sitting here thousands of miles away and not facing the threat of daily rockets or kidnapping. And my family is Israel tell me that. But at the same time, insanity is doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results. When has Israel or Hamas/PLO actually achieved, long term, a different result from their actions over the last 80 years?

 

Your entire analysis is correct - but to your last question., no there is no perfect military solution and it has been avoided for all of the reasons you have outlined. So why escalate now? Because 10/7 was a particularly egregious act, and it clearly demonstrates that Hamas / Palestinians cannot be trusted. Plus, the surrounding environment has changed. Much of the Middle East has moved on from the Palestinian cause (at least the authoritarian governments ) because there is more to gain from relationships with Israel vs backing the Palestinians. So it’s possible that Israel can take more severe action now vs what they could have in the past.

So in your mind was letting Hamas lob missiles into Israel and hoping they can knock them down sustainable and the best course of action going forward?

What is weird is you go back and forth - your entire analysis is reasonable and while I may disagree that a more measured response would be more optimal given the circumstances, it is a defensible position. But then you wade into using language like ethnic cleansing and similar rhetoric which is something different entirely

 

I use the term ethnic cleansing because that's the term the ME and other pro-Palestinians would use if Israel would to seek an ending military solution. Heck, it's the term being used today. Accurate or not, it's effective propaganda.

And yes, Israel's response has to be measured. It's like scratching a persistent itch. The more you scratch, the worse the itch gets. The more Israel attacks Hamas among the Palestinian population, the more Palestinian civilians sign up and become Hamas members. And as the saying goes, if you keep doing what you're doing, you are going to keep getting what you're getting. What, fundamentally has changed between Israel and the Palestinians over the last 50 years? Nothing.

Oct 7 was also as much a failure on Israel's part as it was an effective attack by Hamas. Israel was complacent believing it's uber-wall would detect and stop any attack. But the wall was easily defeated by drones found at your local Wal-Mart and paratroopers. Different story if the border was guarded with troops, and I doubt Israel makes this mistake again.

Israel's best hope is one day, the majority of Palestinians realize how futile attacking Israel is. And maybe eventually, one day, the Palestinians will choose peace. Until then, try to limit the damage and limit the response.

 

Having a conversation with you is difficult because your fact set is completely different. It’s like talking to a hard core MAGA poster. It seems like much of your information is HAMAS sourced.

To equate what Israel has done to what Hamas has done is idiocy. As to Israel use of human shields - to the extent that happened it was inappropriate and should be addressed. But don’t lose sight of the big picture is the reason they are using human shields is because Hamas booby traps everything in sight - buildings, homes etc. much of the rubble you see is from Israel detonating the booby traps Hamas has set - it’s not all from the Israeli bombing.

So you equate an inappropriate act of war - Israeli using human shields - which I am not sure was policy but likely soldiers gone rogue, vs Hamas strategy of using human shields in combat, and in all parts of Gaza.

Can you present evidence that IDF soldiers are raping Gazans?

 

I still don’t understand why YOU use it. Either it is or it isn’t ethnic cleansing and clearly it isn’t. You put yourself on the same plane as Hamas sympathizers when you use such language.

I don’t have evidence that cracking down on Hamas is leading to more terrorism. They’ve put up with it for decades and look where it’s gotten them. So now they are trying something different - basically to as much as feasibly possible - eradicate Hamas and weaken them to the point of irrelevance.

Yes Israel screwed up, and there should be accountability. But the way you frame it implies equivalence - you are equating the perpetrators of terrorism with the victims failure to prevent it. It’s like a raped woman is equally at fault because she was wearing a short skirt (a view ironically likely held by Hamas)

the best hope had zero percent of happening prior to 10/7. Now that Gaza has been completely decimated, might it happen going forward? Perhaps but I doubt it. But at least Hamas is less of a threat now.

Hindsight is 20/20 but what the did with Hezbollah was the answer. Proactively decimate them. Much harder in Gaza given the way Hamas imbedded itself with Palestinian citizens.

Ultimately Israel was forced to make a choice. Protect Israeli citizens or Palestinians within these territories. Once it became obvious that protecting Palestinians only increased danger on Israel, they reversed course.

 

The phrase is loaded and obviously evokes a strong response. That's the point. Even if I stop saying ethnic cleansing in response to Israel's response, it's not going to stop Palestinian sympathizers from using it. And line it or not, it's effective propaganda.

History is the evidence. This isn't the first time Israel has leveled cities and gone after terrorist leaders hiding in civilian populations. Not even the first time they've gone after Hamas this decade! What's changed this time?

Hamas, by nature is a terrorist organization. It's the scorpion and coyote parable. Had Israel not let their guard down, thousands of innocent lives could've been spared. Yes, if Hamas never attacks, same thing. But we should expect Hamas to attack. It's what they do.

Hezbollah isn't dead. They are regrouping. And like a cancer, leave one cell alive and it will regrow. It's the same story over and over and over again. It will be the same this time around with Hamas too. Just as it was with the PLO before them.

This fight has been going on for generations with no real winner. History says this time will be no different.

 

I think it's fun how Trump supporters so seamlessly shift from not saying a word when members of the Trump Administration support white-supremacist political parties in Europe and literal sympathizers of a *can't-say-the-name* group of people in 1940's Germany to ........ bandying about charges of antisemitism whenever it suits their partisan desires. Such as opposing 1st Amendment protest, or propping up B Netanyahu.

I think by now even the most pro-Israel posters on this thread recognize that people not in total agreement with Israel's response to Oct. '23 aren't necessarily antisemitic.

But kick that fake partisan football as much as you want, Trumpers, if it makes you happy.

 

I don’t really see that.

 

Show your work.