Why Isn't Wilbekin at least a late lottery pick?

Discussion in 'Nuttin' but Net' started by InstiGATOR1, Jun 2, 2014.

  1. Osiris_DPM
    Offline

    Osiris_DPM Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2009
    Messages:
    5,923
    Likes Received:
    316
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Ratings Received:
    +822
    Speights was only here for Calathes' freshman year. Also, Parsons wasn't an All SEC/future NBA caliber player his freshman & sophomore years. In reality, the team in Calathes' sophomore year included a sophomore Tyus at the 5, a junior Werner at the 4, a senior Hodge and a freshman Erv Walker at the 2. None of the other freshmen, Vargas, Cheney, Kadji or Shipman contributed significant minutes and were injured most of their careers.
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2014
  2. tampajack1
    Offline

    tampajack1 VIP Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    4,778
    Likes Received:
    60
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings Received:
    +312
    Nick was a very good college player. That said, with Erv at the point, we went to the NCAA tournament in the following year with a really bad team.
  3. Osiris_DPM
    Offline

    Osiris_DPM Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2009
    Messages:
    5,923
    Likes Received:
    316
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Ratings Received:
    +822
    Really bad team? Freshman Boynton at the 2 (leading scorer, All-SEC Rookie), junior Parsons at the 3 (3 ppg increase), junior Tyus at the 4, and RS juniot Macklin at the 5. That team was head over heels better than the previous year.

    In his soph year, Calathes averaged 6.7 assists and 17.2 ppg. In the above year, Walker averaged 4.9 assists and 12.9 ppg. He played on a much better team. Also, the 2008-09 team got royally screwed by the selection committee, having a better record and RPI than other teams that made the tourney like Maryland, BC and Clemson.
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. demosthenes
    Offline

    demosthenes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    7,213
    Likes Received:
    190
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Ratings Received:
    +951
    Speights never bought in and Parsons wasn't Parsons back then. Yes, he had the same name but people act like soon to be multi-millionaire Parsons played the same as a freshman or sophonore as he does now in the NBA. Parsons contributed so little at first that people were conceding him as a throw in to get Nick.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. demosthenes
    Offline

    demosthenes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    7,213
    Likes Received:
    190
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Ratings Received:
    +951
    Very good post.
  6. Jonas
    Online

    Jonas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2011
    Messages:
    3,905
    Likes Received:
    101
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +530
    I don't think 2010 was a really bad team, but I don't think it was head over heals better than 2009. I think:

    2009 PG > 2010 PG (Calathes over Walker)
    2009 SG> 2010 SG (Walker and Hodge over Boynton)
    2010 SF >= 2009 SF (Junior Parsons was probably a little better than combo of Hodge/Soph Parsons)
    2010 PF > 2009 PF (Tyus over Werner)
    2010 C > 2009 C (Macklin over Tyus)

    I think the 2009 team probably had just as good talent (and maybe a little better because Calathes was very very good), but was very imbalanced because Tyus was forced to play Center. 2010 on the other hand had people playing their 'true' positions, but did not have that much depth to be very good. Walker had no backup, and Boynton was way to 3 point heavy as a SG (and also had no backup besides Ray Shipman). The rest of the positions didn't really have good back ups either (Werner and Freshmen Murphy). It was only in 2011 when the guys got a little bit more experienced and had more depth did they get dangerous (Scottie, E Murphy, Young). Tyus also really turned it on in 2011, especially during the tournament.
  7. Osiris_DPM
    Offline

    Osiris_DPM Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2009
    Messages:
    5,923
    Likes Received:
    316
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Ratings Received:
    +822
    ^ As I mentioned above, Boynton scored 14ppg as a freshman, only the 2nd freshman in UF history to lead the team in scoring, as well as making the All-SEC Rookie team. I disagree that Hodge/Walker were better at the two. People continue to undervalue Boynton's contribution.

    As for Parsons, I'd say he was more than "slightly better" as a junior. He scored 3 ppg more his junior year, as well as improved his 3 point % from 30% as a sophomore to 36% as a junior.
  8. InstiGATOR1
    Online

    InstiGATOR1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2011
    Messages:
    3,011
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Ratings Received:
    +48
    Another comparison is Gary Harris the MSU SG who measured out 6'2.5" tall at the NBA combine. Harris is in everyone's first round it seems, but he is a short SG who is 1 inch taller, but not as athletic as Wilbekin.
  9. RattlerGator
    Online

    RattlerGator VIP Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    4,448
    Likes Received:
    252
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Tallahassee by way of Orange Park
    Ratings Received:
    +1,045
    I remember, I think, your support for Werner (I personally loved the guy) and I pretty much agree with you about Speights. I would simply ask that you consider the possibility that Speights was sometimes apparently indifferent because he may (may!) have thought Coach was too indulgent with Calathes. He may (may!) have made an assessment that homeboy simply wasn't "all that," so to speak. He wouldn't have been alone in that assessment. I'm sorry, the slobbering over Calathes never made sense to me. I seem to recall talk about him being a lottery pick in the NBA, talk about him going over to Greece and starting for their Olympic team, etc. Absolutely crazy talk that turned out to be absolutely crazy.

    That's what I mean, and that's what I remember.

    Even now, the glossing over of glaring weaknesses IMHO continues. We underperformed with him at the helm. And just because Coach has a system that doesn't make it easy for talented freshmen to get out on the floor and contribute doesn't mean that Nick played with some untalented players. In fact, it is *far* from accurate to say those teams weren't talented. Inexperienced, sure. A bit dysfunctional, yes. And I'm not saying that was Nick's fault but I am saying it was likely as much his as it was anyone else's fault. Had he stayed another couple of years things might have been quite different but he made the choice not to do that.

    Look, Nick has done well. He's earned his cash, he has persevered and made his way to the NBA. I'm proud of him adding to the Gator Basketball legacy in the pros. But I seriously take issue with any slighting of the players he played with while glossing over his contribution to the under-performance. As for those end-of-year stats I offered, they're representative of Calathes' tenure IMHO. More than some want to admit. They aren't just any game, pulled at random, they are our last game of each of his seasons wearing the Orange and Blue. And they were the last games because Nick came up small. We didn't make the Big Dance in either season because Nick, given who he was supposed to be, came up small -- okay?

    Summation: I reject blaming the back-to-back teams that followed our back-to-back national titles without also blaming Nick.
  10. demosthenes
    Offline

    demosthenes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    7,213
    Likes Received:
    190
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Ratings Received:
    +951
    Wet get it. You don't like Nick and never will. You conveniently ignore statistics that show how great Nick was during his time here and cite the fact he wasn't a lottery pick when he'd already signed a contract to play in Greece. Well no kidding. Why would any team use a lottery or any first round pick on a player that you don't know if they'll come play in the NBA? Now, I doubt he was going to be a lottery pick but if you think it's a fair measure in those circumstances you're way off.

    Sometimes very good players are stuck on underperforming teams. Ken Griffey Jr, Barry Sanders, Dan Marino to name just a few. But hey, I guess they sucked too.
  11. fortmyersgator
    Online

    fortmyersgator Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    2,260
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings Received:
    +98
    Forgetting to show up vs UConn could have something to do with it. Scottie will need to go overseas and play his way back.

    While he had a solid senior season and seemed to mature..I think he has a ways to go yet in play and maturity. A couple of years on his own in a foreign country may be just what he needs.
  12. the_alphagator1906
    Online

    the_alphagator1906 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2013
    Messages:
    340
    Likes Received:
    65
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Ratings Received:
    +226
    So...what about if he gets on a team this year? You know he could get signed as an undrafted FA. We don't know what will happen but if you truly follow you will see that Scotty is traveling around the country practicing for various teams. Why don't we see what happens first before we say he needs to go overseas.
  13. REM08
    Online

    REM08 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2010
    Messages:
    4,737
    Likes Received:
    184
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Ratings Received:
    +644

    Depends what you mean by athletic. You've certainly got a point when it comes to some of the measurables, but to me, Scottie doesn't look as fluid or as coordinated as Harris does. Not sure he's as good a ball handler either (not just talking assist to TO ratio here) and he plays a position that demands it.
  14. madgator
    Offline

    madgator Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2007
    Messages:
    8,514
    Likes Received:
    156
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    South Florida
    Ratings Received:
    +661
    after watching last nights Heat game......the Heat can definitely use a defensive oriented back up PG. especially since they most likely will not be resigning Chalmers this offseason.

    btw, I am shocked (even as a from the beginning SW uber-fan) to see his speed and vert numbers where they are.

    one thing that jumped out at me is his reach figures being 3-6 inches below those other players listed. which makes an extremely relevant distinction on the other aspects.

    another thing that bothers me about SW at the next level is explosiveness. Take D. Wade for example. He is really only 6'3 but he has the fastest leap I have ever seen in my lifetime in the NBA. And something that is extremly important in the NBA is the height and explosion of the often necessary second follow up jump. This especially exposes the fast twitch athleticism that is so crucial in the NBA.

    Wall and Rose both have that off the charts explosion factor......knight not quite as much and thats why he didn't go #1 and isn't as highly rated (though an extremely capable player) in part due to his wing span.

    As with DWade, I've stood next to BK several times personally, and I knew that the 6'3-6'4 listing they give him is false. I'm 5'11-6'1 depending on my last visit to the chiro and BK is basically my height.

    When it comes to this years draft class, from what I've seen, Marcus Smart has that special sort of explosion. I think he is going to be an excellent NBA player. I see, Tyreke Evans at the bare minimum.

    Ennis reminds me a lot of Deron Williams.....if he would've stayed another year he couldve been top 5, but I can't blame him for leaving while his name is hot.

    back to the point.....when it comes to the 65 players or so that will be drafted....the discrepancies between elite talents is like splitting the hairs of a gnat. Especially to those who don't do this all day everyday for a paycheck. Heck, even the ones who get paid to do it screw it up the majority of the time.

    but if I was paid for my advice (even as a SW uber-admirer) I would say that he lack of explosiveness coupled with the 3-6 inches lost in composite height will prohibit him from being an immediate NBA contributor.....but I wouldn't discount the possibility of seeing him down the line in some capacity.
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2014
  15. madgator
    Offline

    madgator Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2007
    Messages:
    8,514
    Likes Received:
    156
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    South Florida
    Ratings Received:
    +661
    I agree with the fluidness of the ball handling as well.....for a guy whose hands look quick and effective on defense. His ball handling (by sight) seems slow and methodic.

    not that it means anything.....j will handling looked exactly the same (along with looking too high received) and yet he had no troubles
  16. GatorsGators
    Offline

    GatorsGators Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Messages:
    538
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Ratings Received:
    +25
    Werner was really bad in his senior season, but I never got why he was the scapegoat in his soph and junior seasons. He wasn't great, but he was a decent contributor. When he lost his shot, though, he didn't contribute much.

    Calathes put up great stats, but I maintain that you can't judge a player solely on his stats. Wilbekin didn't put up a great FG% or huge assist numbers, but Wilbekin was a better floor general -- he ran our offense to perfection 99% of the time, even if the end result didn't always benefit Scottie's stats. You can say what you want about the talent surrounding the two, but the talent on the NIT teams wasn't as bad as we like to say to rationalize those teams' underachievement. Say what you want about experience, which is a more valid excuse than talent at least, but I still think that those teams should have been better. And last season's team really shouldn't have been as good as it was just looking at individual talent (even though I do think Scottie and Pat will become solid NBA regulars).

    Regardless of the stats you can throw at us, Scottie had a far greater net effect on the team than Calathes did in my opinion. And while it's true that Calathes was only a soph and did have time to improve, he left, and I judge college players on how good they were at the end of their careers, or, in the case of a Brett Nelson or Dan Werner where the player regressed, at their best. And Scottie at his best was a better overall player than Calathes in my opinion.

    I really don't understand why Wilbekin couldn't make it in the NBA -- he has sufficient skills and athleticism to make the league. He won't be a star, but I fail to see why he can't at least be a defensive back-up who doesn't force the issue too much offensively. I think his ceiling is greater than that because I maintain that he's a lot better in some areas than some give him credit for, especially in his feel/play-making ability off the pick-and-roll and in his ability to shoot off the dribble.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. gatordd
    Offline

    gatordd Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2010
    Messages:
    2,439
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Ratings Received:
    +103
    Scottie will get his shot in the league
  18. OaktownGator
    Offline

    OaktownGator Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    26,150
    Likes Received:
    2,379
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings Received:
    +6,737
    Agree with all of this. To the point on Scottie's ceiling, I think of a player like John Stockton.
  19. madgator
    Offline

    madgator Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2007
    Messages:
    8,514
    Likes Received:
    156
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    South Florida
    Ratings Received:
    +661

    SW now has the perceived capability of one of the top PGs ever to play the game????
  20. OaktownGator
    Offline

    OaktownGator Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    26,150
    Likes Received:
    2,379
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings Received:
    +6,737
    My intent was to compare style of game. I do believe SW is plenty athletic and has the skills to play a very similar game to what Stockton did. Whether Scottie gets the right situation and can play with that kind of consistency and longevity are big questions.

Share This Page