Why Isn't Wilbekin at least a late lottery pick?

Discussion in 'Nuttin' but Net' started by InstiGATOR1, Jun 2, 2014.

  1. oneatatime
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    oneatatime Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps it wasn't Nick's fault, but when he was playing point guard, it seemed like the other four guys on the court with him were watching him play
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  2. InstiGATOR1
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    InstiGATOR1 Well-Known Member

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    What? If they were watching Calathes, it was so they would not get hit in the side of the head by one of his passes.
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  3. regurgigator
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    regurgigator VIP Member

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    The only time I would consider taking Wilbekin over Calathes was Wilbekin as a senior - compared to freshman & sophomore Calathes. I think that would be a tough call to leave Calathes' playmaking on the bench, but I'd lean that way for Wilbekin as a senior. But, not as clearcut for me.

    I'd love to have had them together in the backcourt.
  4. tampajack1
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    tampajack1 VIP Member

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    I agree. However, Nick could not be counted on to score at crunch time because he did not shoot a jump shot off of the dribble. He also wasn't a very good free throw shooter at crunch time. Nick still doesn't have a jump shot. Scottie won a bunch of games for us this past season with late game heroics.
  5. GatorLurker
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    GatorLurker Well-Known Member

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    What if bacon was kosher?
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  6. tampajack1
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    It's not??
  7. mdfgator
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    mdfgator Well-Known Member

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    Not debating that, nick is a better nba talent is my position..
  8. FakeRickSutcliffe
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    FakeRickSutcliffe Active Member

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    As much as I've loved watching Scottie develop into a great NCAA player, I don't see him as having much of an NBA type of game. HOWEVER, I thought the same thing about Udonis Haslem so what the hell do I know? I am therefore going to take the Costanza counterintuitive approach and hope like crazy that the Heat invites Wilbekin to camp.
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  9. gatordavisl
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    gatordavisl Well-Known Member

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    Very few freshman/sophs develop that kind of shot. Scottie did not have it until he was an upperclassman. If Nick stayed three or four years, he would have been a star at the college level.
  10. keefer
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    keefer Premium Member

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    The one thing SW is lacking is showing the ability to get to the rim. Wall, Rose and others had that ability in college and then into the pros. If he improves in that area, look out.

    Where I believe people are making a drastic mistake is thinking that Scottie has "maxed out" in regards to potential. In terms of age Scottie is about the age of many sophomores. He has a LONG way to go to reach his potential. To be as young as he is and to have the experience he has to draw from is a HUGE advantage as he continues to mature.

    Like Parsons, his best basketball is in front of him and I'd be willing to bet there is a team out there that is sold on that fact as well.
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2014
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  11. tampajack1
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    tampajack1 VIP Member

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    You're probably right.
  12. tampajack1
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    Nick could have stayed 10 years and not developed a jump shot. Old habits are hard to break. He shoots just like his brother, Pat. Scottie had excellent form on his jump shot as a freshman, although it took him a few years to become a proficient jump shooter.
  13. gatordavisl
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    gatordavisl Well-Known Member

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    Nick shot .367 on 158 3pt attempts as a freshman and .390 on 187 3pt attempts as a sophomore. Obviously, he improved his shot. Had he stayed another one or two years, he very well may have continued to improve his outside shot.

    Scottie shot .283 on 46 3pt attempts as a frosh, .457 on 46 attempts, .359 on 103 as a junior and .390 o 172 as a senior. His four year 3-pt % was .376.

    I know that 3pt shooting is not the only aspect involved in jump-shooting, but it would be one indicator. Scottie's overall four year shooting % was .416. Nick's two year overall % was .455. Folks may have a reason for claiming that Nick couldn't/can't shoot the jumper, but these numbers don't necessarily back that up, esp. in comparison to Scottie's numbers.
  14. MadduxFanII
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    MadduxFanII Well-Known Member

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    That Wilbekin was (from the moment he stepped on the court as a freshman) a better defensive player than Calathes is indisputable. That just wasn't something Nick was very good at, as he simply lacked the athleticism and lateral quickness needed to be a really good defensive player. I do think a lot of Nick's defensive deficiencies were exacerbated by the lack of talent around him; we had to ask him to do a lot of things defensively that he really couldn't do, simply because we didn't have other options. Nick Calathes should not be checking Jodie Meeks on Kentucky's last possession, but what else were we going to do?

    That said, and not to denigrate Scottie's contributions in any way, I think this discussion is (unavoidably) skewed by the on-court results experienced by both players. It's easy to prefer Wilbekin to Calathes because the former was a part of four excellent teams, while the latter was the most prominent player on some seriously talent-deficient squads.

    You start looking at the numbers, and it's hard to see some enormous advantage for Wilbekin in the areas that have been cited as his great strengths vis a vis Nick. For example:

    Field Goal Percentage:

    Calathes: 45.4
    Wilbekin: 41.6
    Wilbekin 2013-2014: 40.2

    Free Throw Percentage:

    Calathes: 71.5
    Wilbekin: 71.1
    Wilbekin 2013-2014: 72.5

    Three-Point Shooting:

    Calathes: 37.9
    Wilbekin: 37.6
    Wilbekin 2013-2014: 39

    Truthfully, those are rather amusingly similar numbers. I had no idea they were so close.

    One of the great unanswerable hypothetical questions in the history of Florida basketball is how Calathes would have played with a superior supporting cast. How much better to his statistics look driving and dishing to Frazier and Humphrey instead of Hodge and Werner, or playing with a frontline of Noah/Horford/Young instead of Alex Tyus at the five and Dan Werner at the four?
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  15. regurgigator
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    regurgigator VIP Member

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    He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think tampa means that Nick's outside shot is not really a jump shot, which limits his ability to get the shot off if it's crunch time and he's the focus of the defense. There are other ways to try to score in crunch time if you can't create your own shot, and I think some memories are skewed regarding Nick's ability/inability to make positive things happen in crunch time. Everyone remembers the fails, but not the successes; my admittedly vague memory is that Nick hit a lot of big shots and made big plays in tight games. (And, I still claim he shot that first FT against UK very well and just got robbed by an unkind rim - after that, the remaining FTs hardly mattered).

    But, there's no disputing that Wilbekin became very proficient as a senior in getting off good shots in buzzer-beating situations. It is one of the 2 main reasons I'd lean toward starting senior Wilbekin over sophomore Calathes. The other being Wilbekin's defense which was always outstanding (although I think the attacks on Nick's defense are overblown - he was a decent defender IMO).
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  16. MadduxFanII
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    MadduxFanII Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. Excellent point. This is the way human memory works: we unconsciously shape our recollections of the past to fit the narratives we've constructed around it.

    The NC State game comes to mind as one where Nick pretty much single-handedly hauled us to victory in the late moments.

    And the flip side to this is, because we (rightly) think of Scottie as a big game, big moment player, we remember the successes and not the failures. Wilbekin missed the front end of a one-and-one in the waning moments of the SEC Tournament Final, for example, but we won that game and in a few years no one will remember the missed free throws. All we'll remember is the three against UT at the end of the first half and all the big shots he made, instead of the ones he missed.
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  17. RattlerGator
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    My memory is that Nick Calathes wasn't the player many insisted, and I mean INSISTED, he was. And that talent he played with wasn't as bad as all that, was it? Two future NBA players, who made it to the Association before he did, in Marreese Speights and Chandler Parsons, and a range of other guys who either played or are playing pro ball elsewhere (Alex Tyus, Walter Hodge, Erving Walker, Dan Werner, etc.).

    Personally, I always wondered about chemistry when I watched us play in the years with Nick, and I thought Billy was a little too indulging of the kid. That could not have played well with the other guys. The much-maligned Dan Werner in the final game of both the 07-08 season (5-12 on his shots vs 5-19 for Nick) and the 08-09 season (2-5 vs 3-12) outperformed Nick in my book. As a fanbase, we crushed Dan while showering Nick with praise.

    I'd hate to think the only way around admitting we underperformed with Nick at the helm for some is to disparage the talent of his teammates. Not cool. To use a soccer analogy from current events that betrays my very biased opinion on both subjects, I liken Nick to Landon Donovan. A severe liability in ways not often discussed, and objectively questionable as your lead talent.

    I mean no disrespect to Nick, just as I'm sure others mean no disrespect to Scottie, but I'll take the college Scottie, problems and all, whether as a freshman, sophomore, junior or senior -- every single day of the week -- over the college Nick.
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  18. regurgigator
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    regurgigator VIP Member

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    For the record, I never disparaged Werner's play - I was possibly his biggest advocate on these boards. That wasn't hard for me, because, believe it or not, I thought he was a good player and I enjoyed the heck out of watching him play the game. That said, your argument about him outshooting Nick from the floor in a couple of games is meaningless. You don't think you could do a similar comparison (role player outshoots top player) for every NBA Hall of Famer?

    My comments about Nick's team's lacking something has always centered on our lack of beef in the paint for his two seasons. Not disparaging specific players. Speights was very talented and could be a presence in the paint, but he often seemed to be in foul trouble and, sorry, but he often seemed (and still seems) to not always have his head in the game. Parsons was nowhere near the player he became as a senior as he was in his first 2 years.


    I am curious what about Nick's game that others have INSISTED is true that you don't agree with.

    And, I'm not sure what you mean by Billy being too indulging. I know Billy usually couldn't stand to give Nick a rest for more than a minute before he'd jump up and send him back in the game.
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  19. wci347
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    It appears reach is very important. All of those guards had substantially longer reaches than Wilberkin. He is by far the toughest competitor out of all the ones listed.
  20. NorthCaptivaGator
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    NorthCaptivaGator Well-Known Member

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    Calathes and Speights are both still in the NBA, add in Parsons who will soon be an all star and it is hard to believe Nick never played a tourney game, them again, he and Speights never bought in so not so surprising

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