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Why are football polls and basketball polls voted on so differently?

Discussion in 'Nuttin' but Net' started by LoyalGatorFan, Nov 1, 2013.

  1. LoyalGatorFan
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    LoyalGatorFan Active Member

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    In football, if a team loses a bunch of players and has to rely on freshmen the following year, they are more than likely not ranked in the preseason top 25..or if they are they surely aren't in the top 10....whereas in basketball it's the total opposite...Kentucky who literally has an entire new team coming in unproven, gets ranked #1, in front of a Louisville team who just won the national championship and only lost to my knowledge 1 starter in Siva....so why is it that in football they take into account player additions and subtractions but not so much in basketball? Isn't it the same voters for both sports?
  2. Osiris_DPM
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    Osiris_DPM Premium Member

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    Unlike in football, it isn't exactly rare for a top rated freshman in basketball to dominate veteran players. Many of the top 20-type players are nearly NBA ready, whereas most upperclassmen will never play in the NBA. In football, even a top rated freshman at many positions has a long way to go before they would be ready to compete for an NFL roster spot. Also, basketball teams don't have the kind of complicated play books that one has to learn in football, so a talented player can more easily be plugged in to be productive immediately in basketball. That, together with smaller rosters fewer people on the floor at a time, and it's much easier to rank a team comprised of top rated freshman higher than you would in football
  3. corpgator
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    corpgator Well-Known Member

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    Basketball is a completely different sport. The best athletes are here since to dominate basketball you have to be able to do it on both ends in a variety of ways. So if you're that good, you can dominate a game by your self.

    Keep in mind that preseason basketball polls are more accurate than in season basketball polls for predicting who will advance in the tourney.
  4. REM08
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    REM08 Well-Known Member

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    Was going to respond until I read this (guess I'm still responding though!). Couldn't have said it better. College football and basketball are just two different deals.
  5. llm85
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    llm85 Well-Known Member

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    Haven't you seen "We Are Marshall?" Freshman football players stink.
  6. Bedlam
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    Bedlam Well-Known Member

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    Serious question:

    Do you watch both sports? Do you realize that there is a difference between basketball and football? Why on earth would they be viewed the same in the eyes of voters? Let me know when a team full of true freshmen football players wins the national championship.
  7. InstiGATOR1
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    InstiGATOR1 Well-Known Member

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    Football and basketball are voted some what differently, but not as differently as the original poster suggested. Some of the similarities:

    1. Every year UAL, LSU, Ohio State, OU etc will be voted in the top 10 regard losses from the prior years team. This list evolves like in basketball, but it is the same principle as in football, the top programs are good year in and year out until they stop being good for a few years.

    2. There is a bias towards the programs with the biggest most attentive fans bases. Those are again the traditionally good program and when in doubt they will be ranked and ranked in the top 10.

    3. The coaches poll is rarely filled out by the coach himself.

    The differences:

    A. The polls matter not a whit in basketball. They mean nothing and have nothing to do with getting into post season. For this reason, people are not a pretend serious about their vote.

    B. Everyone loses in college basketball during the year, so basketball polls are somewhat less winning streak polls than football polls. A team can lose a game and sometimes not drop much or at all in the polls.

    C. There is not as much worry about running up the score etc affecting poll voting.
  8. GatorRade
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    GatorRade Well-Known Member

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    It seems like this will no longer remain a difference next year.
  9. LoyalGatorFan
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    Yes I do watch both sports...intensely....I just don't understand the rationale behind picking a team with unproven players to be ranked as the best team in America...more specifically in front of a team who just won the national title and has almost their entire team back
  10. LoyalGatorFan
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    LoyalGatorFan Active Member

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    I think the bigger picture here is preseason polls need to be done away with entirely in all sports...the first poll shouldn't be released until a month or two into the season when we have a better idea of who the good teams are
  11. GatorRade
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    GatorRade Well-Known Member

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    Very few would think that you are crazy if you ranked UL in front of UK. (However, you will probably be seen as crazy if you don't put UK in the top 25.)

    The bottom line is that some freshman are just really good college basketball players. Carmelo, John Wall, Derrick Rose, Greg Oden, Mike Miller, Fab 5, Marcus Smart, etc. If you put together a team of these players, it would be excellent. UK probably did that this year.

    Unproven sure. However, it is also unproven that Micheal Jordan would beat me in 1 on 1, but I don't need "proof" to find some good evidence to make this claim.
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  12. GatorRade
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    GatorRade Well-Known Member

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    I used to be very big on this idea as well, until I read this post by Ken Pomeroy defending the preseason polls vs. later revisions.

  13. LoyalGatorFan
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    LoyalGatorFan Active Member

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    Your MJ claim kind of enhances my point...you could find evidence that he would beat you...with this UK team there is no evidence because they haven't played a single minute of college basketball yet...and before someone says I'm hating on UK, I am using this argument for any team with all or mostly freshmen...Kansas this year is another good example...it's almost like experience means nothing anymore....


    QUOTE=GatorRade;6953052]Very few would think that you are crazy if you ranked UL in front of UK. (However, you will probably be seen as crazy if you don't put UK in the top 25.)

    The bottom line is that some freshman are just really good college basketball players. Carmelo, John Wall, Derrick Rose, Greg Oden, Mike Miller, Fab 5, Marcus Smart, etc. If you put together a team of these players, it would be excellent. UK probably did that this year.

    Unproven sure. However, it is also unproven that Micheal Jordan would beat me in 1 on 1, but I don't need "proof" to find some good evidence to make this claim.[/QUOTE]
  14. REM08
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    GatorRade it the nail on the head with both responses.

    As a Kentucky fan, I would have been fine with a ranking other than #1, but probably not outside the top 5 or 6 though. Just out of curiosity, and I promise I won't even combat it (lest this turn into a 'how good is UK?' thread), where would you have ranked Kentucky presseason?

    I don't put much stock in the "unproven" thing. Technically, its not even true. Surely freshmen are unproven on the college level, but its not like they've never played the sport of basketball and its not like we haven't gotten to see how past players have progressed into college ball. People act like predicting freshmen is similar to discussions of how good a football player Patric Young would be. That's unproven! Highly ranked freshmen coming in and having a profound impact during their first year of college is not unproven. Its not a given, by any means, but those who rank teams are able to (accurately or inaccurately) project how they think a team will be. No question Kentucky is more of a projection than others - but they're all, every team, a projection of some sort. If you start expecting voters to, arbitrarily IMO, limit the ranking of young teams, then the preseason poll would end up needing an asterisk next to it many years. This isn't any different than the voters who refuse to put freshmen up for preseason POY honors - yet, inevitably often times, end up voting for freshmen by the end of the year.

    Also, you diminish UL's situation. They didn't just lose Siva (who was their most important player IMO). They lose Deng also - who may have been their second most important player. They also have another starter (Chane Behanon) in a weird situation where he's suspended indefinitely. 2 weeks ago Pitino boldly declared that Chane would never play for Louisville again. Now, in true Pitino fashion, he has since alluded to him being back fairly quickly - haha. While they're FAR more of a known commodity than UK is obviously, its not exactly as you suggest.
  15. REM08
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    [/QUOTE]

    No. Its a projection as well - one based on how each person has performed while playing the sport of basketball on different levels. I'd argue that you could find logic that MJ would win - the same kind of logic used in projecting young teams. By your premise here, we'd all have pretty much NO way of knowing the outcome of such a matchup OTHER than the fact that we should lean MJ because of a greater level of experience until GatorRade proves himself on the same exact level.
  16. LoyalGatorFan
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    LoyalGatorFan Active Member

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    Well then we have NO way of knowing UK will be as good as people think they will be....to answer your question, I would have UK in the top 25, and possibly even in the top 10...but I sure wouldn't have them #1 ahead of a team who won the national title and returns more proven good players than UK does....just take what happened to UK last year...they had the top recruiting class and they were ranked preseason top 10 to my knowledge....I can go back later and look up last year's preseason polls....and what happened? They lost in the 1st round of the NIT....now I understand Noels injury played a key component in that but still IMO even with Noel they weren't a top 10 team at any point last year....
  17. REM08
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    REM08 Well-Known Member

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    I think UK was ranked 3rd last year (preseason and preseason only...). Thats why I said nothing is a given. I don't think this years class is comparable to last years and it combines with better returning players. The fun part is getting to see what happens. Last years overrated UK team proved how little damage preseason rankings do. They dropped like a rock and will this year as well if things work out similarly. 2012 relied on many unproven freshmen also - and that preseason ranking worked out differently. Time will tell.
  18. themistocles
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    themistocles Well-Known Member

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    So, the consensus appears to be that College football and basketball, in fact, football and basketball in general, are two completely different types of sports with notably different player experience influences.

    I think most people would agree with that observation.
  19. GatorRade
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    GatorRade Well-Known Member

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    Saying that we have "no way" of knowing is just as inaccurate as saying we "know 100%" what will happen next year. And I agree that just because UK is getting a bunch of very good high school players doesn't mean that they will be the #1 team. But then again, just Louisville won the national title last year doesn't mean they will even make the tournament this year. Proven high school players don't always play well in the next year college, but neither do proven college players (see Brett Nelson).

    Basically no matter what we do, we must rely on indirect evidence for both UL and UK (and UF). Clearly this type of knowledge isn't perfect, but it is much better than random guessing. And this indirect evidence suggests that both UL and UK will be very good this year. (and UF)
  20. MJGator8104
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    Personally, I believe that it would take several years (or more) of teams comprised of mostly (or all one and dones) tanking before they are not automatically considered preseason top teams. It is what it is...

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