Where does all the money go

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by g8orbill, Apr 16, 2018.

  1. GatorBen

    GatorBen Premium Member

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    They're certainly political non-starters because of the significant portion of the country who has the (false) J.G. Wentworth understanding of the programs ("It's my money and I want it now!").

    But I suspect the difference is largely a generational one. My impression is that I am significantly younger than most of this board. And I'm operating under the working assumption that I won't get much in the way of SS or Medicaid, because they aren't sustainable programs.

    So for those who have spent a lifetime paying in based on the false idea that you were saving your money for retirement through a government program, I get that perspective. But from my perspective, Social Security and Medicaid are little more than taxes that I am paying to fund services for current old people.

    I'm personally okay paying those taxes, but it probably merits a conversation as to the sustainability of the programs given that, as the percent of population who are old people increases, the tax base to fund those services is going to necessarily get more and more stretched.
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  2. VAg8r1

    VAg8r1 GC Hall of Fame

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    Wont' completely solve the long-term solvency problem, but a good first step would be to increase legal immigration. To placate his nativist base the Dear Leader is proposing the opposite further aggravating the problem.
    Immigration Curbs Will Weaken Social Security
    The link is from Forbes, not exactly a media tool of the left

    https://nypost.com/2018/01/29/why-immigration-is-key-to-saving-social-security/
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  3. WarDamnGator

    WarDamnGator GC Hall of Fame

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    I agree that we are technically paying a tax to fund the SS trust fund, and the fund is being distributed to current retirees ... but again, that is not much different than how a pension fund works, and no one is calling a pension fund an "entitlement" ... people with pensions seem to believe they earned their retirement by working, contributing, and saving ...

    SS is functions like a mandatory pension fund.

    And I'm not that old, either ... 43 ... and I think SS will survive because people will demand it. I recall a recent poll where 90% wanted SS saved ... and 70% would be OK with raising the withholdings to save it. I don't think the political will is there by either party to kill it.
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  4. QGator2414

    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    Sign me up!!!

    Even better. Can I get back all the money taken from me? I will allow you to confiscate that money if I could opt out today. But it would only be right of you to let me have it back.

    The problem is...you need to confiscate it and you need my contributions now for others!
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  5. QGator2414

    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    It is way different. SS currently requires you and I to contribute for current beneficiaries at our expense. A defined benefit plan is paid for via compensation (a benefit) to the employee for the labor they provide.
  6. WarDamnGator

    WarDamnGator GC Hall of Fame

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    Yeah .... taking money out of worker's paycheck and giving it back them after retirement is "way different" than taking money out of workers's paycheck and giving it back them after retirement.
  7. QGator2414

    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    When the government takes FICA out of our paycheck. It does not go into our defined benefit account.

    When an employer takes money out of an employee's paycheck for their pension. It goes into an account with their name on it.

    There is a huge difference!

    And yes...I will happily opt out today. You willing to give back everything I have paid in? I would do it without. But it helps show what you are...
  8. WarDamnGator

    WarDamnGator GC Hall of Fame

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    BS ... we have all heard of pension funds being raided and bankrupt, the funds are not sequestered in "an account with their name on it" ...

    And two seconds on the internet I see that SS is defined as "state pension" style plan ...

    Social and state pensions

    Many countries have created funds for their citizens and residents to provide income when they retire (or in some cases become disabled). Typically this requires payments throughout the citizen's working life in order to qualify for benefits later on. A basic state pension is a "contribution based" benefit, and depends on an individual's contribution history. For examples, see National Insurance in the UK, or Social Security in the United States of America.

    You are wrong, time to move on.
  9. citygator

    citygator Premium Member

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    The reason you get nothing to refund is because although Social Security IS solvent and CAN remain solvent with tweaks the Military borrowed/stole from the general fund for many years as under funded. Not just the military but all general fund activity AND tax breaks.

    There is a funding plan for SS. NOT for $1 Trillion in military spending and tax deductions this year. Where were you when all this went on?
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  10. citygator

    citygator Premium Member

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    Opt out then. Move out of the country and you’ll be fine. No more taxes and no more SS benefits to deal with ... problem solved.
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  11. RealGatorFan

    RealGatorFan Premium Member

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    It is barely. By 2024, maybe not. The issue are the baby boomers and the lack of Millennials joining the work force. SS is a ponzi scheme and if the incoming income isn't enough, look for cuts to the program starting in 2025.
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  12. QGator2414

    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    Pensions and SS are two completely different things.

    But carry on...

    Are you good with letting me opt out and being paid back everything I paid in (I will ask no interest)?
  13. RealGatorFan

    RealGatorFan Premium Member

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    Put it this way, I earn really good money but have put in about $150k in the fund. I'm due almost 36K a year when I retire. Maybe I'll have put in $300k by the time I retire, but I'll get that back in 12 years once I retire. Sure, you say what about interest but all the money I have put in has been spent and never has earned any interest. You look in the fund and you see only IOUs which earn zippo, nada.
  14. QGator2414

    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    I posted it for you earlier...

    Trustees Report Summary

    Start putting every FICA dollar in a personal account and SS is bankrupt in less than 4 years.
  15. citygator

    citygator Premium Member

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    STRAWMAN
    A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man."
    Straw man - Wikipedia
  16. GatorBen

    GatorBen Premium Member

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    It’s not really borrowing/stealing, the government has to do something with the money in the trust funds, and the law governing the trust funds say that they must be invested in interest bearing treasury securities or bonds guaranteed as to both principal and interest by the federal government.

    Now, the ledger effect of the federal government buying its own debt is really just to move the funds from one account to another to be repaid with interest later, but what is the alternative? The federal government clearly isn’t going to just sit on $2.8 trillion in cash (nor would any other fund administrator). And if they did, it would be a huge drag on the economy. So what is Social Security supposed to do with the money? Folks have a stroke over the idea of any portion of the trust funds being invested in the market, and I think it’s pretty clear that they wouldn’t view investing in private debt any more favorably. Which effectively leaves only Treasuries as available investment options.
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  17. QGator2414

    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    Stop the nonsense...

    Trust Fund Data
  18. QGator2414

    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    Just stop. You are the one posting actual deceit.

    “Money flowing into the trust funds is invested in U. S. Government securities. Because the government spends this borrowed cash, some people see the trust fund assets as an accumulation of securities that the government will be unable to make good on in the future. Without legislation to restore long-range solvency of the trust funds, redemption of long-term securities prior to maturity would be necessary.

    Far from being "worthless IOUs," the investments held by the trust funds are backed by the full faith and credit of the U. S. Government. The government has always repaid Social Security, with interest. The special-issue securities are, therefore, just as safe as U.S. Savings Bonds or other financial instruments of the Federal government.”

    Trust Fund Data

    ***Just saw @GatorBen addressed the nonsense you posted about the military borrowing***
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  19. Bushmaster

    Bushmaster GC Hall of Fame

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    So 95% of candidates running on doing the right thing won't get elected.

    I don't think that makes the point you were after.
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  20. citygator

    citygator Premium Member

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    I’m not arguing how the cash is structurally used. I’m arguing that pointing to the funded portion of the budget instead of the unfunded portion is disingenuous. Social security is funded. Quibble with how it’s funded if you want and even for how long it’s funded at current rates but it isn’t the budget buster. Military spending and tax cuts weren’t funded by any measure at all. Period.