What's Really Making Us Fat?

Discussion in 'Gator Country Health and Fitness' started by philnotfil, Mar 8, 2012.

  1. Dreamliner

    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    I have observed that whenever I critique a particular paleo advocate ... paleo comes to mean everything and nothing. Funny how paleo types hail Sisson ... until they find it necessary to cast him overboard.

    Seriously, nicho, why can't you just derive comfort in the fact that you've found an eating strategy that works for you, without making these wild boasts about the "ultimate diet" ?
  2. Nicho

    Nicho Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure where I "hailed" Sisson. I linked to one of his articles that I happen to agree with, and I thought I was pretty clear about that. In general, I try to embrace ideas more so than people. And that applies not just to nutrition but politics as well.

    I can sit here and say, "well, I found what works for me." But that would be disingenuous on my part. Because at the end of the day, quite frankly, I think the calorie counting approach you espouse is horsesh&*. Nothing personal, that's just the way I see it.

    Sure, you've got the masses on your side. But let's not forget how many times the conventional wisdom in nutrition has completely whiffed on basic tenets. How many decades did it take for the establishment to realize that one its most fundamental ideas, the low-salt diet, was complete hogwash? Even today, folks still believe that nonsense because some docs remain nostalgic about it.

    Folks should absolutely question what I am saying. But don't dismiss it until you've at least given it a shot. If it's too inconvenient or extreme for you, well that's fine, too. But it's another matter altogether.
  3. Dreamliner

    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    I may I have the advantage on you. I'm in the health and fitness industry and can tell you that, on the ground, hokum of the sort you're suggesting, cockamamie ideas that certain diets can override the Law of Thermodynamics, reign supreme.

    This is probably because people will go to no end to blame foods and food groups, as paleo drones do, to avoid taking personal responsibility.

    In any case, why would I feel the need to 'try' paleo when I already know that leanness is a factor of energy balance ? Indeed, I'm leaner, eating sugar, than any paleo proponent that I know.

    And why do you suppose that eating yummy foods should make people feel bad or rob them of their health ? I can tell you that eating foods I enjoy feel great! So, please don't foist your food insecurities on the rest of us.
  4. 96Gatorcise

    96Gatorcise Well-Known Member

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    if you read Kruse he will throw the laws of thermodynamics on its ear. The body has the ability to uncouple itself from its metabolism. You can burn calories off through heat without the need to exercise.
  5. 96Gatorcise

    96Gatorcise Well-Known Member

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    Nasa has studies on astronauts going into space coming back leaner and with a resting metabolic rate increased by 20% it has to do with cold space and the body burning up calories for heat yet they would still have a large percentage of the food stores on board. At the same time the cold controlled their appetite. Its hormones first calories second.
  6. Nicho

    Nicho Well-Known Member

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    The takeaway from this is that the human body is an open system. Ex phys folks like Dream tend to boil it down to cellular respiration and sarcomeres, but that is a gross oversimplification.
  7. 96Gatorcise

    96Gatorcise Well-Known Member

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    Dream, you would actually like Kruse, he believes that everyone exercises too much and are shortening their lives. He says you should eat a seasonal ketogenic diet and do cold thermogenesis (ice baths). He believes its the key to long life and a healthy life. He thinks cross fitters and runners are just killing themselves, Yes they look and feel good now but when they deplete their stem cells through rapid turnover to look good and perform well they will end dying of disease and younger then expected.
  8. Nicho

    Nicho Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. And certain foods induce greater hormonal effects than others. Think glycemic index.

    Someday the mainstream (Dream, et al) will recognize this as truth. But they'll kick and scream all the way until the end.
  9. 96Gatorcise

    96Gatorcise Well-Known Member

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    Also Kruse is not the only one think Cold thermogenesis. A company named VASPER recently licensed NASA's research

    plus more studies keep coming out about brown fat burning white fat to create heat to keep us warm.
  10. Dreamliner

    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    I don't see how that throws thermodynamics on its ear. I can burn off calories having a panic attack. Don't fall for the snake oil, 96! :whoa:
  11. 96Gatorcise

    96Gatorcise Well-Known Member

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    Dream open your mind and don't get hooked on the first thing you read, you have only been in the field for a short while, there is so much more to learn.:yes:
  12. Dreamliner

    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    Of course the body is an open system. Open mouth, eat too much food (regardless the food), get fat and sick. Open mouth, eat enough food for your needs (regardless the food), stay lean and look great.

    I prefer science to magic.
  13. Dreamliner

    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    I know Ellington Darden had people chugging ice-cold water and shivering back as early as the 70's.

    But of course a warm environment doesn't go to explain why the obesity rate has tripled since 1980. It's the calories.
  14. Dreamliner

    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    Right, first thing I read was something kooky called Energy Balance Theory and I just took it and ran with it.

    Maybe I should peruse a few dozen *more* ward studies and I'll come away with the conviction that a petite, moderatly active middle-aged woman can stay lean on 3,000 calories a day as long as she eats only what she kills and forages.

    Of course that would make her the only paleo I know. All the other paleos I know *think* they're paleo. In reality, they're settling for 'available food' like I am. It's probably just a matter of degrees.

    Seriously, the kooky notion I'm at war with is the silly notion of 'metabolic advantage. I don't care if it comes from a paleo or a low-carber (usually almost synonymous).

    And I'm also at war with people who say you shouldn't eat this and you shouldn't eat that.

    Oh, and elitists piss me off too.
  15. Dreamliner

    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    I did get the impression that, with respect to exercise, he's a "sweet-spot" guy. I actually don't see that much in the field. Seems like the trend is in the other direction.

    I reserve judgement on the other. But in keeping with the topic, I would again assert that people lose weight on ketogenic diets *insofar as they go to establish calorie deficits*.
  16. 96Gatorcise

    96Gatorcise Well-Known Member

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    Dream,

    First read his stuff, Start with the Leptin series and then the CT series. If anything its is quite interesting.

    Second, you are correct in the sense that Keto is a calorie deficit, BUT if done correctly (which most do not) it is a natural process that happens as you adapt from being a sugar burner to a fat burner.

    Most people force a deficit on themselves through will power and end up failing because it is "too hard" or "it makes me feel weak"

    There is a 4-6 week transition period to making the switch in that time you will feel hunger or weakness but if you eat and not force the deficit on yourself it is minimal. Once the switch occurs your hunger hormones (leptin(off) and ghrelin(on)) will naturally adjust your hunger and energy needs and reduce your intake. Protein and fat yield a longer energy release (amino and fatty acids) compared to the rather quick glucose response.

    A sugar burner has a constant need to replace glucose, ghrelin is up and hunger is constantly being kept at bay. A fat burner has a rise in leptin and decrease in ghrelin naturally keeping appetite satisfied and caloric intake down.
  17. lacuna

    lacuna Well-Known Member

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    96, I want to underscore what you have written here and attest to its effectiveness on my body and my life. It was reading Kruse's blog entries that encouraged me to go paleo. I have a substantial amount of weight to lose and have on numerous occasions started diets, lost weight, then ultimately failed and backslid. Discouraging.

    Since starting with the leptin resistance RX about 6 weeks ago I have lost more than 20 pounds and feel great. I have not felt hungry. To add some perspective, I am a 60 plus year old female and my lifestyle, while not sedentary, is not an active one. I am not a fitness freak. My health is generally good but for the excess weight I need to lose.

    Three weeks ago I began a landscaping project that's rather ambitious for an overweight grandmother. I leveled, dug out extensive roots and raised with something more than 1200 bagged pounds of topsoil an area approximately 15x20 feet next to my house. I built a retaining ledge out of small limestone boulders weighing in the range of 25 to 75 pounds each and terraced the area. I built 2 steps out of flagstones weighing about 60 pounds each and now I am laying 6x9" and 6x6" paving stones in a pattern on the newly raised and leveled area.

    I am doing this by myself. I have had no help and I am loving every minute of it. I think I have been in a ketogenic state for more than 5 weeks and my energy level is amazing. And I know I am stronger from the weight of the soil and stones I have been shuffling around.

    When I began eating paleo I missed the abundance of fruit I had been eating. And I missed potatoes and sugar. And Chocolate most of all. Have had no wine (sticking to water), but expect I will not give it up forever. Or beer, either, for that matter. And when I reach my goal weight I will reward myself with a reasonable amount of chocolate in some form. Made myself a chocolate mousse with cream, unsweetened chocolate, eggs and stevia but it wasn't quite the same as when it is made with sugar.
  18. Dreamliner

    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    If you're on keto to lose weight, calories are still key. I've met a number of people who've gained weight on keto diets. Why do you suppose that is ?

    Now, I'm onboard with satiety theory and so forth. But even that is an individual thing. For example, eating refined carbs does not make me ravenously hungry two hours later.
  19. Dreamliner

    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    And if I might interject, lacuna, I'm not here to quibble about your weight loss. Good for you! But you say you've missed quite a number of foods you enjoyed. Isn't that as good a reason as any not to sacrifice them ? And if you do intend to go back to them, isn't that evidence of a conviction that you can, so to speak, have your cake and eat it too ?
  20. Dreamliner

    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    In my way of thinking, calorie restriction beats food restrictions anytime. Merely contain calories and you can eat the foods you enjoy and lose (or control) weight at the same time.

    Win-Win!

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