What is theFuture of the Energy Landscape

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by G8trGr8t, Nov 12, 2013.

  1. G8trGr8t
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    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    WSJ ran a interesting series on energy today. not enough depth though

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304200804579163391632274628

    hydropower is real, extraction of hydrocarbons in stacked layers of shale deposits worldwide has just begun and was ignored, nothing on wind either, nothing on nat gas and how it has cut electric costs in US and how it could transform our cost to transport. nothing on impact of domestic oil/gas on economy

    here is a good presentation on ND shale. the industry and the gubmnt used to think 1 well per 1280 acres, 400k barrels per well. ie 400k barrels per sq. mile

    now up to 30 wells per 1280 acres, average 650k barrels per well. 19,500k barrels per sq. mile

    and they are still trying to figure it out. averages per well will increase and there is another layer (Red River) that they haven't even tested yet but will soon

    slides 7 and 10 have good graphics

    http://nocache-phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=197380&p=irol-presentations

    click on Nov presentations

    google following titles for free links in links don't work, here are some snippets

    Going With the flow wsj

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB20001424052702304799404579155684035172664


    what's holding back nuclear energy wsj
    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304906704579115510865908136


    biofuels beyond ethanol wsj

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304527504579168140813739808


    oil companies go deep wsj

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303442004579123560225082786



    assault on the battery wsj

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB20001424052702304066404579125791002529378


    what solar power needs for a brighter future wsj

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304520704579129211308141046

  2. gatorev12
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    gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for posting this. I didn't get the chance to reply last night and the demands of work beckon this morning, but i'll respond later.
  3. HallGator
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    Same here. Lots of information to absorb in the post.
  4. OklahomaGator
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    OklahomaGator VIP Member

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    Yes thanks for the post, interesting read.
  5. rpmGator
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    One of the big electric problems is water. Florida is at its limit on pumping from the aquifer yet we are still growing. Ag needs water, people need water yet electric plants use a lot of water also.

    Other states are worse off. This is where they waterless systems of wind and photo solar help out.

    A new salt inside ceramic ball storage system for thermal solar, the use of heat not light, has the promise of making steam through the night. But, the best places for thermal can also be the driest like in our deserts. Even thermal solar uses water, just not as much as other systems.

    We will need all of the systems with growth and the competition from other nations for energy fuels.

    NG has been a blessing, yet the push to sell it out of nation to the higher bidder can remove that cheap energy from being affordable.

    Why am I so big on wind, it can't be sold to the highest bidder and the energy it produces is used here.
  6. G8trGr8t
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    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    Desal solves all water problems it just raises price of water which is currently undervalued. We have plenty of water just not enough cheap water

    I like the idea of using hydraulic reservoirs as batteries. pump it up during the day with solar and or wind when available let it come down hill through the generator when you need it.

    Replumbing or new plumbing to existing dams is interesting opportunity for long term investment vehicle
  7. MichaelJoeWilliamson
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    MichaelJoeWilliamson Well-Known Member

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    Related

    Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/11/12/208326/us-expected-soon-to-be-crowned.html#storylink=cpy
  8. G8trGr8t
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    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    Russia and Saudi Arabia do not include natural gas or natural gas liquids in their calculations so it is not apples to apples. Lot of US production is natural gas. We pay 3.5 for what world pays 14 - 16 for wrt nat gas. Cost to cool transport and then regassify is 8 so US will be cheaper than world until world starts mapping and fraccing then we lose that competitive advantage
  9. rpmGator
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    rpmGator Well-Known Member

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    All states do not have salt water, so desal won't solve all the problems.

    The small ceramic balls filled with salt is the newest type of heat storage unit and is the best so far.

    If you use more expensive water, your energy costs will also go up as well. That is why no water systems are needed. You can put one up in the driest location and still create electric.
  10. MichaelJoeWilliamson
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    MichaelJoeWilliamson Well-Known Member

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    The article mentioned natural gas. But when it states that the USA will be oil king, that is what it meant.

    Oil does not equal natural gas
  11. G8trGr8t
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    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    yes, it took too long to post. maybe should have broken it up a bit
  12. G8trGr8t
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    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    article is misleading, author equated boepd to bopd. us also includes bio-fuels

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/15/us-oil-pira-idUSL1N0I51IX20131015
  13. G8trGr8t
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    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    all states have salt water down there somewhere, just have to drill a little deeper
  14. exiledgator
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    exiledgator Gruntled Premium Member

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    Compressed Air Energy Storage technologies are also taking steps forward and could provide interesting solutions.
  15. MichaelJoeWilliamson
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  16. G8trGr8t
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    [​IMG]

    this is the graphic for a 12 well configuration over a dsu (1280 acres) that does not tap the third bench of the 3 forks and has well spacing at 800 feet intervals. they are downspacing the 800 feet separations to as low as 330' currently being drilled/tested to determine if they communicate after fraccing. different fraccing techniques, pressures, fluids, geology crack the rock different distances and they are still working out that science.
  17. HallGator
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    Not a Perpetual Motion Machine but does have that kind of ring to it. Self renewing in a fashion.
  18. gatorev12
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    gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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    All good--it does illustrate the complexity of the issue and the myriad of different energy options for our country to invest in.

    Unfortunately, the number of competing energy sources has meant that industry lobbyists and politicians have lined up in one "camp" and no one (to date) has put it all together in a comprehensive, national energy plan.

    I've long advocated for a term paper I did in law school--but after looking at the number of sources you posted (some of which I wasn't aware of), I realized that there's still more options available.

    The paper went something like this: there's TONS of oil offshore and in federal lands. States that utilize this (Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi) receive billions in royalties and subsidies from oil and gas companies. The federal government also receives billions in subsidies from the oil rigs in the Gulf and in other areas---and, to date, this is still barely tapped with all the advances in drilling.

    Too often, politicians treat energy as a zero sum game. Oil drilling OR alternative energy. Not both. We already know that the federal government receives billions in royalties from oil companies (and can get more by opening up more offshore tracts)--how about a Congressional mandate to devote a certain percentage of the money (say 30%) to a national energy trust?

    Use trust funds to develop offshore wind and/or tidal energy plants. Renewables *can* be cost-competitive with non-renewables long-term...but the short-term start-up costs are so great that people get turned away. Instead of federal government *tax dollars* going toward renewable energy--why not money they receive in royalties? It's a win for EVERYONE.

    Oil and gas companies would continue to drill--with all the benefits that entails (more domestic jobs, more domestic oil production, more domestic jobs in related industries and parts suppliers)...PLUS, the country would finally have the funds to build offshore wind farms (the East Coast of the US has often been called the "Middle East of wind" since there's literally enough raw power there to supply millions of homes). Offshore wind farms don't have as many residential or aesthetic complaints and are less of a danger to birds. Moreover, the power will be located close to demand (many of our east coast cities are close by the shore--and regional power companies can buy up the power).

    The big picture: after the start-up costs, alternative energy works like any other product with economies of scale--it becomes cheaper. A big reason oil and natural gas are so cheap is because everything's already in place. When you build a new rig--there's facilities there to refine, store, and export it. Wind, solar, and tidal don't have that luxury...but when the facilities are built to harness, capture, and convert it...long term, their every bit as cost-competitive as non-renewables.

    Even bigger picture: with lots of power to choose from in 15-20 years time, the cost gets driven down for everyone. If even 25-30% of our electrical production is from renewables (which is easily in reach given the abundance of wind, solar, and tidal potential in this country), that's billions of dollars we save as a country every year. America could theoretically even go to an oil-exporting country again.

    There's a litany of potential benefits (and thousands of new jobs) to list...but I kept it as brief as I could.
  19. gatorev12
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    gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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    Cliff-notes version: the govt. gets BILLIONS in royalties from oil/gas drilling already. INVEST IT!!!

    Devote it to wind, hydro, tidal, and solar. Within 10-15 years, as more renewables come online, their cost will be driven down and American power companies will have lots more options to choose from--leaving savings to energy savings from American consumers and businesses.
  20. HallGator
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    Diversification is the wisest way to go in my book. Lessen the chance of any one thing causing a major upheaval and open up more possibilities in the future. Too bad our "trusted leaders" don't seem to understand that.

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